Elise Keith 0:00 All right. So for everyone who is just joining, if you had, I know there are a million webinars going on in sessions going on. So if you're at all confused about where you are today, we are here to talk about using leadership to support more meaningful meetings. Now, if you are here, that means that you are already a leader of some kind, because being a leader means stepping into the space, stepping into the opportunity to create direction to grab value, you know, leaders don't wait to be spoon fed meaning. And it's tricky, and it's complex. So a lot of what we will be doing today is working together to create the value from this session. So by the end of our time together, we want to walk out with some ideas about how elite, you know, exceptional team support, working at the limits of human performance. And for that we are going to benefit from the wisdom and experience of our guests. We're going to explore our own beliefs and assumptions about what it means to lead. And then ideally, with luck, we'll make some sense of all this. And we'll create some tips and takeaways that we can share with others going forward. Now, we have just 75 minutes to do this, which is not a whole lot of time to distill the concept of leadership. So we're going to have to stick on it and work together. So here's my plan. And lay this out, and so you know what to expect. So to begin with, we're going to introduce this set it up. We're doing that right now. And then we're going to do what's called a fishbowl. And a fishbowl is a technique where we listen to just a couple of people share their perspectives on the topic. And in this case, our fishbowl guests are Juergen Heitmann and Andy Walsh, hopefully you read their bios and some information about them beforehand, guys, go ahead and wave so that they can see you. And one of the things I want you to do with my waving crystal ball friends is go ahead and click on their face and pin their video. Go ahead and do that right now. That'll make both Juergen and Andy quite big. And then you get to see them in all their glory. Maybe john, you can do that for us. Okay, and then after that, we're going to go into smaller groups, we're going to work in groups of five and six. And we're going to try to make some sense of what we heard. And while you're in your smaller groups, you'll be working in group map, and there's a link to group map over here, and I'm gonna put it back in the side chat again. And while we're talking with Andy, and you're, again, you're welcome to use group map to go ahead and jot notes that you have about about things you're hearing that you want to make sure you remember or ideas that they've mentioned that you want us to dig deeper into, because we're gonna keep our first conversation down to just 20 minutes. And then in your small group, you're gonna come up with just three ideas about that you'd like us to go into farther, and we'll come back and then you will help lead the rest of the conversation. And then we'll save the last five minutes for wrapping up and getting into our bottom line up front. Now, does anybody have any quick questions or things they'd like to share before we get started? Hi, Chris. Hi, Patti. Hi, Brian. Chris Lortie 3:36 Warning. Unknown Speaker 3:39 All right. Chris Lortie 3:40 Hi, you're again, hi, Andy. This recording No. Elise Keith 3:48 Awesome. Unknown Speaker 3:49 Alright guys. Elise Keith 3:51 So for those of you who are not Andy, or uragan, go ahead, because so we can focus on them really well and turn your video off for a while. And I'm going to set my timer for 20 minutes. And we're going to go ahead and get started. So Andy, you're going thank you guys so so so much for volunteering your time this morning. It's incredibly generous and wonderful for you to bring yourselves to us this way. And I want to start by help getting helping everybody understand sort of where your perspective is coming from. So on this topic of leadership, can you give us a sense of of your journey so like when you first entered your career? What did you believe that leadership meant? And how did your earlier experiences either like reinforcer or combat those beliefs? Jurgen Heitman 4:54 Sure, I'll, I'll start first and then I'll turn over to Andy. So just a quick background for those that They didn't get a chance to read my background. right out of high school, I joined the Coast Guard, and was a rescue swimmer, and listed up in Northern California. And then after about five or six years, I found out about the seal teams, and then switched over there for about the next 30 years. And, and I think what I really had the privilege of is being around some, of course, amazing leaders, but unique environments, and unique challenges and unique failures and learning opportunities that really emphasized the maturation of how we look at leadership, how we look at communication. And today, I'm going to focus a lot on the communication aspect in different environments, and how that relates to the meeting, meeting space. But as we all know, it's all about communication. And I think, you know, in the beginning, you have a perception of what you think you should be doing, you're taught in a very structured manner, you know, you're you're being developed as a as a coachable, quote, unquote, coachable athlete, you're learning how to learn. And you're really being taught self awareness, team awareness, environmental awareness, and you're listening, you're becoming a good active listener, and observer and reflecting. And what I was picking up was how people interact, their actions spoke louder than words, their action was communication, it amplified our behaviors amplified or culture, how we lead, how we act, and not what we necessarily said, in our environment, because it's a very visceral environment. And I think what I learned is through the maturation of my career in the different environments, and as as it grew in complexity, not necessarily tactically, though, that was your critical foundation. But the strategic and political environment, it turned back on to a sense of how I communicated not to the performer of the individual, but more about the individual in and of itself, there's a deeper sense of empathy and understanding of where they stepped into the picture, a deeper sense of respect. So I think one of the critical pieces that most people don't get a chance to really appreciate is the perception and the reality of our world in special operations. And there's always this sense of what you see in the movies and what you read in the books, and the sergeant rock perspective. And actually, there's a really deep sense of empathy, and understanding and adaptation to the environment, still with direction and guidance and leadership. But it's a different leadership. And I think that was really kind of my journey, that was had emphasis in different points in different environments, that really drove at home to the sense of when I just retired a couple years ago, the complexity around that from a strategic sense of relationship and communication, and the importance and the goal of that was a whole different sense of, of engagement of leadership. But I'll turn it over to Andy for some reflections from him. Andy Walshe 8:02 Thank you. Well, good morning, everyone, or good evening, I'll just go with both at least, I probably couldn't be more different in our sort of trajectories. But funnily enough, I think, sort of, you're going and I ended up in a very similar place I started off early as a as in my training early was as a coach as a as a human in the human performance, Romo's I doubled down and did the coaching degree as a double major, so to speak. So as you know, cell can fundamentally teach. And I think the sort of summary of that was that that I sort of reflect back I sort of started with this idea of coaching as the sort of model. But in the coaching world, and the way they teach it to you in the sort of pedagogy of it is, is either very directed instructional coaching, very efficient, very quick, but very boring. And there's this sort of Guided Discovery model on the other end of that spectrum, where you kind of let people find their way in, etc, etc. My very first experience leading a group in a formal environment was I was given a class of five year olds kindergarten to teach for six months, six weeks in, in physical physics. And I realized that God a discovery was some joke that someone had put in a textbook because if you let them fit, try and figure out what was going on. There was chaos and shoot. So I got to this very directed model, and the kid thrived. And funnily enough, sort of my career just went from sort of coaching into sort of the more science of human performance, I got the opportunity to sort of seen observe extraordinary leaders and coaches. I got to work with communities like Oregon's I got to see business leaders, I got to see a lot of World Class coaches, right at the top of their game. And early on, I think my mistake was in the way I approached it was I was I was bringing human performance science to communities a world of sports, etc. Were people, it was very new, it was very fresh. And I found a lot of my sort of work was educating and teaching even the top coaches about the science of performance and things like that. And I found myself sort of drifted off probably, without any formal leadership training into this sort of default that I'd explain, explain, explain. And then everyone would look at me blankly, and then I'd say, Well, here's what we'll do. And I found that sort of being the one of only a couple of people sort of leading that it sort of defaulted back to a bit more of that instructional style. Again, but then, as I observed extraordinary leaders across all these domains, I saw that, that there was so many different ways of doing this, I mean, different approaches and styles. And my sort of biggest takeaway study would be I, I kind of fell into that trap of reading a book, and then trying to figure out how to be that leader. And I'm like, and my skills on the management side of organization and everything, I felt like I had to this day still feel like, that's where I leave, let everyone down. And I tried as hard as I could to be that great manager, organized, structured, you know, because great leaders had a plan, and I read all that stuff. And it just never worked for me, I couldn't do it. And I found that I also lost touch with as humans, Juergen said, sort of connecting with the people are so busy trying to organize the perfect structure and, and role that I wasn't sort of paying attention to the individuals. And then again, as I said, I've watched many people leading in different ways. And, you know, as I grew up and understood more, and I tried all the different styles, I was watching and observing, just trying to figure out the thing. And then I ultimately, you know, as you do, as you get older, you recognize that there's approaches that are written up in the books, there's approaches that you're observed, but the people have really figured it out and figured out how to do it, that works for them, you definitely lean on examples, and you try it. And in some cases, you just see people do things in a way as a leader that I think you try to emulate a part of, but if you try and copy them, you just don't bring that full package to the table. And I think that that creates work. And I think when you can default to your authentic self, with, you know, recognizing where you're strong, and but also where you're where you're not going to be strong. And that's where I started, when I really started to figure it out was I started to recognize that, you know, there's so much more that could be gained if you started to develop your own style. And where you had the halls very quickly fill up, you know, make sure that those holes in your style that may not serve everybody underneath you the way that you should be serving them, they feel more comfortable with saying my case, more structure, find people who can bring that to the table and do it really well. And then you thrive and you get that sort of team leadership approach where you're leading in one way and you're leaving the other. And there's sort of leading in the other approach. And I'm sort of just to wrap it up, because I know we only have a couple of minutes, I guess. Where did I land? I guess? Elise Keith 13:00 I guess that's the really the next question for both of you, right? Because you talk about finding the thing where you can lead as your authentic self. Yeah, and especially if you're newer in your career, there's a crucible to go through right, the crucible of the authentic self where the experiences that you have, in forming, inform and build that perspective. So I think, you know, from both of you, I would love to hear a specific example. Like, here's an experience that I had that that that helped me understand what works for me, only you know, you Andy Walshe 13:36 Well, I think when I I'll give a quick one a throwback to yoga, and one of my early experiences was it was really interesting, because it was also a cultural shift for me. I was doing stuff in Australia, we're actually you know, and and the environments always obviously attracted to them working in elite sport down there, relaxed, sort of a style or approach very sort of kind of the Ozzy it'll be right mate, she'll be right mate. And I took the job in the US is sort of to build out the human performance program for the Winter Olympics, the US ski and snowboard for the Salt Lake games. And I started by myself with great backing from the community from the the organization, but I had to build the whole team. And I think what really, I sort of end was back at I felt almost like back at that kindergarten role. I was like, Alright, let's hire this person, you do this. And they'd never had a structured human performance program and the pace I was on I had three years, which is in our world, that's probably two years Listen, you need to actually build a program that will have an impact on the talent. And I felt back into that role. But then at that time, I was also exposed to urines community more deeply and other groups like that. And I started to realize, wow, I'm not not enabling the potential of the talent that's in the team. I'm, I've I probably spent an extra year too long organizing and structuring telling people what to do to get it going versus stepping back. And that was a mistake I'd made. And then that really anchored me in that where I am now is that space of what am I going to bring to the table and my leadership style evolved out of that was I people kept doing what I was asking them to do. But they were more engaged when I was passionate about the big idea and, and putting out the big vision. And I think my model is sort of devolved in, I found people get excited when I get excited about what we're doing. And I like to look into the future and see what's possible. And then people come. And it's not like you, it's just sort of, we're all together on this big challenges. I almost like the idea of manifest the leadership model. And that lesson, I think, had I applied earlier, and all those roles prior I would have probably been had had more effectiveness, and the people probably would have had more fun, I think, and I got away with it for a couple of years in the in the cultural shift in the US because it was so fresh and new. And my I think my accent got me got me a lot of forgiveness. But they're not they're not I think that still to this day, I feel now if I can focus on that idea of leading through inspiration, and not me, but the idea of by what we're trying to achieve. People tend to naturally follow. And then obviously, people who because I get to work every day with yoga, watching and listening to him and how he does it. And people like that, who are extraordinary leaders like it on every level. That's just trying to fill in and pick out the blanks. Elise Keith 16:34 So you're again, as an extraordinary leader, tell us more about your crucible experience. Yeah, I Jurgen Heitman 16:42 think just ending on that note from Andy, you know, I think one of the greatest pieces I've been taking away from being around this group and others is, is, is not striving to be an expert, as a leader, but be an expert learner. And I think this this mindset and this humility, of becoming more of a coach, and where this was emphasized to me and in Besides, what I've seen now, you know, in this amazing community of liberal collective and the people we are touching, is probably mid through my career over in the battlespace as a Task Force Commander, I lead this unique group that was looking at the connectivity of operations and influence and information sharing towards action across 25 different countries. But this this amazing, complex feedback loop. And and what I had coming in was this Star Wars bar of unique people from many different organizations, many different cultures, many different countries, some that don't have any counterterrorism background at all, and some that are deep operators, and how from a leadership perspective, I took this Star Wars bar and tried to put it together with a common intent and common direction, with very, very fast dynamic feedback loops, a huge learning velocity, and then a bias towards information sharing to action and accountability and responsibility that, so from the leadership piece, again, as we were adapting to all our different cultures, this coaching mindset, versus a, you know, back to this directive mindset that you would think a leader would be doing in that world was so so important, because again, by doing that, it was starting to touch the individual in it of itself. And not the role or the title of the individual. And that that developed this unique sense of connectedness, this trust and this transparency across the group that accelerated and amplified our speed of learning are speed of execution, and our speed of communication. And, you know, these terms are very general. But I mean, to me, it was very visceral because I was living it. And it was so important in an environment of long term uncertainty, ie war for so many years, the complexity of counterterrorism, global complexity, and this importance of sharing information. So you can distill that down and align that to any organization today as a stepping into these very unique, uncertain environments that are constantly an exponentially rapidly changing and adapting, and the humility as a leader and as an organization to not force what you think is right. But always kind of, as I always think about is great leaders move before they're forced to move. However you want to define that you're constantly looking upstream. It's how you interact. It's how you engage. It's how you develop relationships. It's how you use those relationships. It's how you communicate, you know, to distribute a force, how you develop those common goals those clarity of effort That process of communication, all those things. And that really, really hit me hard during that time of complexity of being in the center of very violent, dynamic actions. But the complexity of all the different global partners that we had in these 25 countries, I was that the responsibility of sharing that information and coaching that team, that really diverse, complex team towards a common goal, and that was really, really, really important to me. And I think, you know, in today's world, and as we matures, those deep relationships that are established through that, that adaptation of leadership to these unique environments, and that was adapting almost daily, because the environment was changing almost daily, your actions, your decisions, your leadership, change the environment, by the nature of those actions. So how were you really kind of respecting that, that dynamic of adapting to those environments as a leader and I think that was another critical piece of just kind of dialing it back almost, almost in the sense of flow with your team, that you're absorbing the environment, and you have this very acute awareness of the environment and your team. And and where your leadership has to adapt to dynamic environments. And, and you know, it in the world we lived in, it was extremely dynamic by the nature of it, unfortunately, the human aspect is the most dynamic and unknown part of it. So we were influencing it to a whole nother extent. Elise Keith 21:35 So you're gonna sue in the comments mentioned, she's, you know, that meinzer makes her think about how quickly the vaccine has been developing for COVID. You know, that kind of in highly dynamic, highly complex environment. But to to anchor this for folks who are, who have not heard the backstory, you're talking about overhauling communication structures for during the Iraq War, right? Jurgen Heitman 21:59 Yes. And that's one aspect of it, because we had, you know, so many distributed cells. So how do we fuse that together? How did we, how did we articulate a shared purpose, a common goal, as we always said, this shared consciousness, so people can move through that with with clarity of their pathway, and they're in their, in their, in their goals? I think that's one of the biggest things in this environment that we live in now. Is, is where a common goal even though we're so distributed, and virtual, in some sense, really connects people together. And and that's a huge aspect. And how do you as leaders, how do we, as leaders, develop a discipline structure and architecture behind that to do that? And it's not easy at all. And it's hard, and it's a lot of learning. But the important step is you have to take that step forward. And like I said, you have to move before you're forced to move, then you're, then you're behind the curve. So I think back to the question here, the complexity of the vaccine now, it's almost like we're okay, we're in it, we're doing it, we accept the reality of it, but who's thinking way upstream? And that's where usually the failure becomes of, what is that process? When we get to these key milestones? Where are we thinking way upstream? What are the second, third, fourth, you know, effects of what our actions are occurring? And how are we really putting those contingency plans that we then begin to pivot off of, you know, how are we managing those consequences, both in our own minds, both the good and bad consequences, because that's, that's the mental aspect, the aspect you control, you can control you can't control the environment right now, the political, global political environment, the global pandemic environment, how humans will react, you can't control that. But what you can control is how you manage your consequences effect, and how are you contingency planning to do that, so then you pivot off those learnings in those actions. That's where you people can calm down. That's where you get this consistency of leadership in long term duration uncertainty, some of some of my reflections from the experiences and people I've seen. Elise Keith 24:16 Awesome. Okay, so speaking of looking up stream, and creating your own value and moving forward and whatnot, I think this is a great moment for us to pause and break out into smaller groups for a little bit. So for everybody here, who is not Andy or your again, go ahead and turn your cameras back on and here's what we're gonna do. Because we've gotten just started right, we've just started to touch on all kinds of interesting possible topics, you know, when you go fast and slow is one of the questions Chris asked in the chat and complexity and directive leadership versus coaching leadership versus vision setting versus you know, and then what is this you know, you're gonna just started to talk about structure and pasting, and you know, all of that kind of infrastructure stuff. And we haven't gone deep into any of it yet. But guess what good news, we've got time. But how we're going to work on this first is we're going to break into groups. And here are your instructions for your group. So as you go into your group, and I think groups of, I want to say four or five, maybe you'll have eight minutes, it says 10, I said, you're gonna have eight minutes. And your mission in your group is to select three questions or topics, you'd like this collective to go into deeper. All right, you can use group map to see things that we've already captured and capture more ideas that way and to guide your discussion. When you get into your group, I invite you to introduce yourselves and to first each share one thing that you found fascinating and one question that you had, so you can get those all out. And then spend your time together, coming up with your three questions. And then we'll bring you all back. nominate somebody to speak for your group. Now, three times, however many groups we have, there's no way we're going to get through all of them. I'm inviting you to pick three so that as we go through each group and ask you to bring your question to us, in case your question gets taken, you've got a backup, third backup, because there's a good chance we might have some overlap. Does anybody have any questions about what is about to happen? Okay, john, would you be kind enough to throw everybody into groups? three to one automatically whisked away? Off you go? Unknown Speaker 26:48 Yay. All right. Andy Walshe 26:52 All right. Can I give you one second? Elise, I hear an alarm going off? Unknown Speaker 26:56 I think you got it. Man, you got eight minutes, man. Oh, Andy Walshe 27:00 this is my day right now. Give me one second. Jurgen Heitman 27:04 Ah, I think those are all really kind of important aspects to think about when you're in this virtual environment. And then when you come out of the virtual environment for leaders. Elise Keith 27:17 So for you both, I'm curious. Now, as you've been working in with business communities, right, where were the, you know, and and the, maybe some of the creative communities and whatnot, where the imperative for planning for learning for you know, getting it right, because if you fail, you lose the gold or people die, you know, isn't there? Right? How, what have you found to be ways in which what you're saying resonates? And where is it that they struggle in a way that you can't quite break through? Jurgen Heitman 27:58 Any your minister Would you like to start Andy Walshe 28:01 when you start, but one thing I would say at least is, just to set up Jurgen, a little different framework is people say that, like it's not losing a goal, or in some cases, not, someone's not fallen off a mountain or No. But the reality of your training and your background and everything, that losing a million dollars, or missing, that big deal to them feels the same up here. Within context of losing a lot, it's catastrophic. I put in the term catastrophic. And I only know that because in many cases over the years observing non life threatening sort of decisions and processes, but people ultimately even in the worst case, scenario commit suicide as a cause. Yeah, Andy Walshe 28:45 I think they feel it just the same way. And so I sometimes think that helps us sort of up to a point that helps us sort of break down the barriers and get no, this is super important to you. And it feels like life and death. Elise Keith 28:58 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess, um, and I guess probably, like, I have the the great blessing and curse of working with folks who are farther down the chain quite often. Right, you know, who are stepping into leadership roles in the the middle levels, and whatnot, where? Yeah, it's it's not their initiative. It's not, it's not their butt on the line if the deal goes south, you know, but, Jurgen Heitman 29:29 but but there's a balance. I think being in the middle is the hardest. Yeah, that's where it's the scariest because you're trying to Excel to the people that you work for. But you don't want to look like you're failing to the people that that work for you. And that's where this dichotomy of transparency and authenticity of feedback loops, of very, very clear discussion of learning. deconstructing and reconstructing environments is so critical. That's I always come back to, you know, my big lessons learned. It's all about communication. It's all about communication. And that's all emphasized in actions. And that's where these for us is that discipline process of training all that your emotions, the physiology, the cognitive aspect that me saying, it's all the same, you know, it's all the same up your head and Sir David rails for just re emphasize yesterday on a call that, hey, the only thing you can manage is how you how you and your organization deal with the outcomes and the consequences of it, both good and bad. And instead of reacting, how do you respond to it, you have to do proactive planning from that. And that's a structured architecture of communication. And thinking about that stuff. Andy Walshe 30:46 I love that. And the lethal, I would add is, I think, where where we will ended up spending, I started as a coach, and we ended up as a coach, and I think, what can you What can you really do what resonates is the question you asked with the business world, I think what resonates is, is you start to teach them how to invest in understanding themselves first. And, and, and, and how to then understand have helped to have that lead to help the people under them understand themselves. So first, lead understands themselves in the leader understands how to get the team to understand themselves. And through that deep coaching, sort of empathy, I don't care what sort of style you end up that groundwork makes sense to people. And what we see typically, in many worlds is it's such an underserved part of the whole process. Because everyone's so busy doing and trying to execute that work on your on a deeper connection. Then it does and for what I've learned is it doesn't matter then you can pivot from Alright, next week. I've seen this 100 times I'd love to have everyone's input. But yeah, screw it. Just XYZ get it done, too. Hey, we got a problem. That's you guys solve it. He come back to me with so there's, I think that allows you then to recognize how to best serve as a coach. Cool. All right. Welcome Elise Keith 32:21 back, everybody. JOHN, are they all back? Unknown Speaker 32:26 Okay, you're muted. Unknown Speaker 32:28 Yep. No. Okay. Yeah. Elise Keith 32:30 And then how many groups did we have? John Keith 32:33 Well, we ended up with Unknown Speaker 32:37 I think, with just seven, Unknown Speaker 32:39 maybe seven. Unknown Speaker 32:40 I reached, I recreated them just before we went through some people came and went, we allocated. Elise Keith 32:46 Alright, so um, here's how we're going to run this Bart. Welcome back, everybody. I hope you had an interesting conversation. I'm sure for some of you. It was too short. And I'm sure for others of you. It might have been too long. So that's why you're here. Welcome back. Andy and Juergen. We're gonna invite let's find out what they want to know. Would you like Andy to pick a number between one and seven? Two. All right. So doesn't does group to know who they were? Unknown Speaker 33:20 No, Elise Keith 33:21 john, Do you happen to know who group two was? Do you have those with you? Unknown Speaker 33:24 Brian, jack, and Unknown Speaker 33:28 Chow. Elise Keith 33:29 All right, Brian, jack and that team? What question would you like what one question or deeper dive topic? Would you like to go into Brian 33:37 those Brian, jack and Kavita? And Juergen right at the end, you were talking about managing the effects of the existential factors that you can't manage the existential factors, but you can manage the effects they have. And both jack and I lost your point. We just didn't understand what what what you were trying to say. So we would love it if you could expand on that. And the other thing we have is a feedback loop is so applicable to to business and operations that any any more on that as would always be welcome. Jurgen Heitman 34:16 Yeah, you bet. So yeah, I apologize. My clarity of that. It was just something that was emphasized yesterday when we were in a discussion with some amazing leaders across professional sport, global professional sport. And I was talking to cervid Sir David Brailsford, who is the cycling director for team in EOS and has done some amazing things with British cycling over the years. And what we were talking about was, was this internal pressure, this emotional pressure you have in an environment that's constantly changing and and has some could have some serious consequences and what can you control and Sometimes people that get caught up in a reactive mode are trying to react and change the environment. So they feel comfortable driving towards, you know what they wanted to do so to speak, instead of almost kind of just being really good observer and adapting to the environment that is changing in front of you, and trying to get ahead of that. So you're comfortable to responding to the new environment versus just reacting. And the responding piece is the emphasis the structure, you develop, both for yourself as a leader and your organization and team about thinking about that. So for us, that's contingency planning. And we were just talking about this, you know, we plan every mission to the to the tee on every contingency. And the reason why is because we know once we get off that heel on the X, it's not going to go as planned. And even getting to the x usually doesn't go as planned. And we all know that as leaders, I mean, there's the goals, short term, near term that we plan to, but it doesn't actually work that way. So how are we training our team, as leaders to think about that structure in their mind things they can control, get a connectiveness, a shared awareness, so they can all pivot and pivot accordingly. And then through that team, you trust whoever is close. And the reality is, whoever's closest to that problem set has the greatest clarity and understanding to do that. But sometimes titles get in the way of allowing the leadership and the decision making to go. So that trust transparency, communication, clarity, allows everyone to just pivot it's almost like, and I love this, Daniel Coyle talks about this, just think of us as your team is a flock of birds flying through the forest, it's just flowing in is reacting, whoever is closest to the tree or the obstacle, or whatever the case may be, or a school of fish in the ocean. And that's how we as a squadron on a target have to be you have to keep momentum, you have to keep flow, you can't accept hesitation, because that's when the enemy gets inside that loop. Jurgen Heitman 37:07 So that's, that's kind of where I was articulating there. So if you understand the consequences, you can start planning to that both the good and bad. And from directors or leaders point that's for the organization, that's for the negative effect, that could be a loss of a lot of dollars, not just your companies, but maybe someone else's dollars, the cause and effect is huge, you know, the learning effect is huge. Is it looked at as a failure, or as a learning experience? How are you setting up how you prepping and supporting that environment? And then for you, as a leader in and of itself? How are you emotionally dealing with that if you have structure behind that, then you're going to respond and you're going to respond in different ways. If you don't, if you didn't think about that, and you don't have structure behind that, usually, you're going to rack unless you have a lot of experience. And that's the dynamics of a young leader, middle middle manager leader, or, you know, senior folks that have been doing this for a long time, and have the reps in that area. The second piece there is is the feedback loop. And that kind of goes into it. So in very uncertain dynamic environments, your feedback loop has to be very short, it has to be able to get information to you quickly, you know, you're not going to get along in a feedback loop. So you're not going to get all the information. And you have to be start getting comfortable and making decisions with maybe 50% of the information that you normally need in a very structured environment. And we can think back probably in the environments we worked in, it was very structured, we had a lot more face to face communication, you maybe had a lot more clarity. And in some organizations, depending on what they are in businesses, that structure is very clear. And you know where you're going in these current environments, it's changing rapidly. And as you look forward, it's going to change even more. So how are you adapting your feedback loops to make sure you as a leader, and you as a leader, getting it out to your organizations have a very good clarity, authentic, transparent feedback going on. Because that gives clarity to everybody to make the right decisions, be able to action, learn from them, and then pivot from those learnings. And I think that's so important today. And the only point I'll put to that, though, is you can't assume that's going to happen. So you have to train your organization from day one to do that. So what are those processes? As we call what is that battle rhythm? What are those debriefing points, those eight after action reviews? What does that discipline process of learning and communication that allows the accountability and responsibility of everyone in the organization to provide their feedback, deconstruct what is occurring and then reconstruct it in the right way, so to speak? There's a lot more to that, but I'll stop there. I'm talking a lot. I'll let Andy add any any reflections over? Unknown Speaker 39:53 Nice. Unknown Speaker 39:55 Yep. Andy Walshe 39:57 I think you're gonna hate that that approach. You laid out, especially for in chaotic and unpredictable environments is that feedback loop, it's getting comfortable with minimal information and then recognizing that you're probably not going to go north north, you're just going to go a little off north, a little off south, and you're just gonna keep bouncing off the edges, and, but he's still going generally in the right direction. Elise Keith 40:22 I think, um, you know, just to tie that back to meetings and meeting architecture and communication architecture in the business world, and what they're talking about when we see this in the business world, or the action reviews, like, like you're just said, and if you're agile retrospectives. And when I work with teams, often they'll say, Oh, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. We'll do those once a month, once every couple of months at the end of the big projects, and then we'll have some lessons learned. And then we'll put them on a poster, and won't that be nice. But when I've worked with people who are in truly dynamic, complex environments, I sat with a gentleman once at a conference who was responding to grid shut down attack. And they ran their action review cycles every 30 minutes. So and, and they were not, you know, they're clearly not a two hour sort of thing where we're playing with sticky notes, right? a much tighter loop. But what what that looks like is it looks like it looks like a lack of planning, right? Because the plan changes as you go every couple of minutes. But in actuality, what you've planned for it, as he just explained, is the underlying system that allows you to respond and adapt. That's the part you design in your meetings, not necessarily what comes out of them or where you're going in the same way. So okay, let's do another group six. Nancy Settle-Murphy 41:53 So I'm the representative we had Miguel, Louie, john Skelton, and Tom who I don't, I think I don't have enough people that I'm seeing on my screen. But that's who was in our group. And people volunteered a number of questions, and I tried to capture the ball in the chat. And thank you for people who have already started responding. And so I put them in the chat so that Andy or your again, could decide which they may want to, to answer because we had a number of them. And you can see them here if you scroll in the chat. So I'm going to, and they were very different questions, and they're all all related to teams, but I would invite one of you perhaps to take one that you find the most meaty or that you have something to say about and respond to it. Andy Walshe 42:48 I'm just, I'm just reading the most listening. So which was your favorite? Out of all of us? Unknown Speaker 42:57 I, Nancy Settle-Murphy 42:58 I know my group, I'm gonna ask my group. So what is there one that stood out for you? Nancy Settle-Murphy 43:11 Louie, Miguel, Tom, john. Andy Walshe 43:17 It's funny. I mean, let me tell you something, it's really an interesting observation presented, what people are thinking, this team size thing comes up a lot. And you know, you hear all sorts of anecdotes. And, yeah, Basil talks about two pizza teams. And that's the maximum. So you know, when we run our training evolutions, where we really are trying to get a group of people to grow a word or something over a period of hours or days, we find that anything above about 1516 becomes a challenge from us with respect to just getting everybody's important everybody participation. And, funnily enough, and that this was a study I was part of many years ago, the research around the world on sports teams is a fundamental reason why they range between four to five to 15 to 20. And we don't know why. But the theory was, from an anthropological perspective, that was the amount of people that you can fundamentally organize well, to play. So I don't know if there's a real answer in there. But fascinating over the years to see that I think what someone nicely noted here that these very highly structured, high performing units tend to be a little bit on that sort of 10, five, six to 10 to 12. Numbers are but then you look at a team that's sort of working on a moonshot like literally launching a rocket to space and it's hundreds and hundreds of people. So I think part potentially defining what the goals and outcomes are, how much communication is going to be needed and how much structure but I definitely agree with someone said he, the bigger the team, the more work it is that that's it that's fundamentally the law and I've never seen a another solution when I hear if you have anything to add to that, Jurgen Heitman 45:02 yeah, I'm gonna add a little comment, then pivot off that to the other question of how we how do we bring different teams from different organizations into alignment and Elise, you know, and Patty's in the in the audience right now, Patti, myself, another colleague of ours, talked about one of the events we had during war, that brought a team of over 7000 people together every day for an hour and a half. And it was caught, it was called our operations intelligence meeting. And for an hour and a half every day, through video teleconference from around the world. All these people got together. And we develop this sense of shared awareness and back to this kind of, quote, shared consciousness of all these different teams and all these different efforts, subsets of what we were doing, in this our section of Global Counterterrorism, from from every organization across the US government, to partner nations, to small remote to person teams in country x in an embassy, to different cultures and organizations that are dealing with complexity, ie the outcomes of what our actions were occurring in different spaces, and how we were sharing that aware that awareness. And it was a very, very powerful both leadership learning experience, because we were seeing leadership in action every day, from leaders of countries, to leaders in our different organizations across the US government, to different leaders across different partner nations that are involved here and hearing their perspective and learning that respect. But the way we were doing that was, was just that we were putting a structure in place. We were doing the repetitions, and we were learning from it. And the leaders that were involved were in the middle of this, they weren't on top. And the communication wasn't up to them. They were enabling and facilitating and asking the hardest questions to the environment, and catalyzing the information. The leaders were giving us kind of the fence lines of awareness of what was going on strategically, from the priorities operationally. And then the tactical aspect was coming was being expected from the teams closest to the problem set. And this started going, and this happened for years and years and years and years through through the war. And it still goes on today, but not to the same, you know, amount, but you can imagine, you know, the challenges you you think about on doing vtcs. And leading and driving operations. Think about that with 7500 people at its max rate, every single day, for an hour and a half. And that repetition began as people came in, to allow the guard drop to drop down. They expected information because we had this accountability and responsibility that for sharing information, someone's going to act on it. So how are we putting context and structure to it back to that clarity piece? What's the clarity of effort? You know, and how were we were? How are we pushing the edges of expectation and creativity to think about how we were going to act with that information or how we were going to share that information. So that's, that's another tool, an interesting tool. And I mean, that's another whole couple hours of discussion to talk into that that aspect. But the point was, we started something, we holistically started a meeting, and then built upon the learnings of that every day for years to the complexity of that many people from around the world being involved and being interconnected and understanding like, Okay, got it. I know where my role is and doing that. Elise Keith 48:52 So I'm seeing all kinds of chat like, Oh, my gosh, how exactly did you do that? And who started it? What was the deal? What was the order? You know, how long did it take who called in what was the tech, this is all before zoom fatigue was a thing. Right? This is all before the corporate CEOs decided it was okay to talk to their people, which they have done in this last year where they show up and they actually zoom their companies. Guess what people have been doing this for years at a larger scale than your company is. And we don't have time to go through all the details of that particular meeting, like you mentioned. So the question, my question is, is there a resource like a good write up where people could read learn more about that one? Should they look at McChrystal group or something like that? Jurgen Heitman 49:34 Yeah, I mean, I can send I'll send you some links, at least that we used kind of for the discussion here that the Aspen Institute did a great review of, of this topic in and of itself, the history obviously, you know, Stan McChrystal, and the coastal group have used this as a foundation. There's some other articles that are written from this from a perspective of an academic case study, so we're not you know, talking about groups But how outside people look at this process. So I'll share all those with you all. Elise Keith 50:05 Awesome. Thank you. All right, so I see, we've got another 2515 minutes to go on some of these things. I see a whole bunch of questions in the chat. Um, can I hear from Chris Lordy, Chris Lordy, what? What one question of your many questions is who you want to prioritize for, for the airspace? Chris Lortie 50:31 Hmm. In our group, we discussed how you bring these big principles down to a per meeting basis. So I think a lot of the things that we talk about in science and meetings or in these kind of workshops are great. They're big ideas, but but how do you actually put, you know, in a really simple way, put them into play? In each and every meeting big or small? Yeah, take that. Andy Walshe 51:01 Can you be more specific, Chris? Give us give us an example. Chris Lortie 51:06 Yeah, so right now I'm working through a course on positive intelligence. And they talk about how the rational mind is really common in higher performers. But how hyper rationalities. And often the best tool, it's kind of a hammer. And people sometimes don't need to hear how to be most efficient, but how to be supported. And in our group, Keith and others described like one way to be authentic is to share passion and inspiration. So how do you enable in those, like damage control reports that you're talking about? Or the work that you do Andy with high performers to the capacity for people to express emotions? Because that that is probably one of the bigger ways that we are authentic, not in reporting statistics on how efficient we are? Right. So how do you enable emotional communication in meetings that engender is higher performance? Is that better? Andy Walshe 51:57 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'll have a quick show, I think one of the things that's really interesting about these high performing communities is that the passion is there. So the meetings are, tend to be pretty emotional, you know, they, especially a win or a loss or something like that, it's very black and white, but even in the I think it comes down to they share such a baseline of common purpose. And ethos is a very clear direction as to what you're trying to achieve even at the highest levels, the bigger levels, and that ethos gets that trust and builds that baseline for trust. And another, it's often overused a lot. But I think as a leader, enabling that environment, sort of either by modeling the behavior yourself, obviously, I think it's everyone on the call would understand. And then recognizing that the especially in these in these cardigan, ones, there's this, there's always a time to have those meetings where people can share just how you feeling. How are you doing? So checking in as a coach, at the human level, bothered to be very pragmatic at the start of a meeting, what you see a lot of people do, how are you today? That's not let's not get into agenda, that's just what's going on in your life? What's the world and I think, connecting people at the human level and caring about what they are going through, sets that baseline to sort of roll up into them sort of bringing that sort of authenticity to the table in a powerful way, at least as a coach. That's, that's how I've recognized it. You can place a link more to add there. Jurgen Heitman 53:25 Yeah, I'll just add on to that from a tool that we use in our world, which again, is it you can apply that as a coach as a leader is the after action review. It's a it's a muscle memory that we learned since day one of training and back to how we reflect from our experiences. So it's the experience plus reflection equals learning and for us, and really high performing organizations are also very, very good learning environments, and very good learning organizations have placed a priority, which I think is probably the most important tool is what is that learning process. So it's stated in our ethos, it's it's actioned, it's expected as accountability and responsibility to be involved in this communication process that again, deconstruction reconstruction environment, looks at it from actions and an objective point of view. And like Andy said, you know, in a group that has very deep connection and trust, Chris, it can get very colorful, not disrespectful, but colorful, different than you would expect in an organization. But that's expected and as a leader, what are you doing kind of behind the curtain to catalyze and expect these different perceptions? Because unless, you know, we'll just take an operation per se unless you're everywhere. There's no way you can know how you what what actually occurred. You're using your experience and your emotions, what happened at that point in time, the fog of war, the clarity, you had your your point of reference, you think about this in a business organization, you know, what was the context what was the leader dealing with, you know, On the bigger picture all the surrounding pieces and how do you deconstruct what occurred? And then how do you reconstruct the learning process of what it could have been? Or what are those critical things that we did well, and we want to emphasize in the future, what we didn't do well, and what we have to train to change, or at least reflect to the next time we're in those situations. And what were those uncontrollable environmental characteristics that made us pivot. So we reflect on that the next time it starts coming up, and we plan towards those possible uncontrolled environmental pieces, which it could be weather, it could be human factor, it could be environment, it could be whatever the case may be. And that muscle memory happened all the time since day one of the schoolhouse, but you're learning how to reflect. And that's teaching you self awareness, team awareness, environmental awareness. And then back to that emotion. When you are in those very visceral emotional events, you're automatically reflecting on that cataloguing it. So when you're with your intellect, and Andy's world with your coach, later, your coach is pulling that out of you, and then breaking that down. As a team, we're breaking that down when when you come off a target and people have been killed, or hacia was killed, or it really was health very, you have to close that chapter, you have to do it objectively, you have to allow those emotions to go out and then a professional and then move forward towards the goals and then the sideline pieces. So how do you do that with structure, and that's where the emotion really comes out. But the only way you do that is you have to do those muscle memory, you have it, that process is the most important thing. To do that and the accountability, responsibility of everyone being engaged, and everyone being heard, builds upon that. And that just matures over the years to very complex things where you're bringing a whole bunch of people into it. Elise Keith 56:49 Awesome, and it's wild to watch teams who have never done any of those things start to do like basic check ins, right? Like just that, that whole, I want to re emphasize that that muscle memory part of it just the we show up and we say how we're doing, you know, just an energy meter, I'm on a scale of one to 10. How are you today? And why? like watching teams do that the first four or five times they are stiff as boards and hostile to be doing the fluffy stuff, and all of that kind of thing. And about 678 times in oh my gosh, you know, so and so's getting married and hey, how's your dad doing? And you know, all this stuff becomes real. And they stop having stupid meetings, because they didn't trust each other to do the work. They trust each other. Now they can, they can have real conversations. Andy Walshe 57:39 So when you say that when I think to the online meeting, because I know a question came up there, what I've noticed and humans evolve quickly. So the start of zoom meetings at the beginning of the pandemic, to where we are now and, and people tried to bring that false, organized business world to their home zoom meeting, and people were struggling because kids were in the background, I think and then to the point where we are now most people have accepted that this is it's actually real inhuman to be having chaos in the homelife behind your screen. And I think that's a perfect example of how people are learning as they go in this environment to your point, bringing the guard down a little in creating that reality, which is helping them become more connected and authentic, and then allows you to get into the meeting with that higher sense of trust of everybody. Because it was funny at first watching even in our world, my my wife and her meetings, trying to make sure everything was right for me and everything. And then yeah, just just to emphasize the point you made all this? Joe Allen 58:36 Yeah, absolutely. The thing I would add there is that one of the recommendations that at least and I continue to make with everybody is start your online meetings with a couple minutes of real, how you do in conversation, you know, that small talk and the the data and the research says that pre meeting small talk actually makes the meetings more effective, because we're more authentic, we're feeling like humans, as opposed to automatons that work in a workplace. Elise Keith 59:00 Yeah. Um, and of course, that means you also have spoken, and you're not doing your email at the time. So clever strategy there. Linda, you had a number of questions. I think we have time for one more before we wrap up and said you had so many awesome and Linda's got a very different perspective. So Linda is a professional master facilitator and working with very different kinds of groups. Linda, what some? What's something you would love to dive into in our last couple of minutes? Linda 59:29 You're going to Andy talking their greatest insights around leadership online, really where we're going now, many of us have the understanding of welcoming people and speaking to the relationship that our group talked you're going about our gratitude for your emphasis on relationship. How do we really get it genuine when we know that this is and you and Andy just started speaking about this is that you A little bit too broad Elise, or can you focus in for us? Jurgen Heitman 1:00:06 I'll just jump in real quick. You know, actually, you know Patty's husband, Mo, Michael, a fever really drove us into me for many years working with him that in the end, when you reflect out the most important thing, you know, top three most important things you've ever done is building relationships, relationships, and relationships, and everything that pivots off of that. But back to one of the key things on what we did from a virtual perspective, that was really different is we made failures visible. And it was important, we did that all the time, because it really almost amplified and accelerated that trust and transparency, both failures as a leader. So from leadership, you know, how are we how are we feeling in communication? How are we failing in action? What are those consequences, and again, thinking about that all the time. So we live in an environment where failures were the catalyst of really creating change. And Patty mentioned in some of the chat, that it is so important to have the time when you're, you know, in this really globally connected, very complex environment, not necessarily in crisis, because there was another question about that. But how are you doing that repetition, where you're stepping into, you're showing, you're being vulnerable, and you're showing those failures. But but the leadership part is, again, back to that learning philosophy. So how are we quickly learning from those failures and driving forward? That sheds so many compartmentalization, aspects, titles, you know, things like that. And it really gets to the root to authenticity of things. So I'll just stop there real quick, and pass it to Andy, for any reflections over? Andy Walshe 1:01:48 Linda? That's a great question. I think I probably touched on one of the greatest insights was this, this observation that trying to maintain a false narrative or false avatar about your environment at this moment, and trying I mean, there's all the fantastic YouTube videos of the kids in the background stuff, I think, I think if I step back and look at the last eight months, and just focus on that, because I think that's that's been the greatest lessons learned is this is, as a human as an individual, this, all these challenges that are being imposed the pandemic, of social injustice, democracy, climate, you picked this list of things that just seemed to be stacking up. So this is this overarching sort of pressure on the system. And then you switch from how I'm going to work. So now I have to meet a line. And I think my greatest insight is that, first and foremost, what you did, in the old way of doing meetings dragged into the new way of doing things, and it just doesn't work. Have I got a great solution for you? Not really. But what I do observe now is that I think there's, there's a much greater demand for experimentation with this. I think Elise has done a wonderful job, even today of how she structures this, I've learned so much listening and watching this process. And I think what we do know is even in the online environment, and I'm seeing some of the research out of the neuroscience labs, and that is the slight delay, or the inability for the face and the human to connect properly. And just one on one neuroscience, when humans engage face to face, there's so much that's transmitted about each other via the micro expressions, the mirror neurons, everything that's going on that isn't captured. And in fact, with zoom, because of that fraction delay, there's that little bit of drag on that sort of information, it's actually creating a greater sense of cognitive dissonance in the brain, hence that at the end of the day, I am completely exhausted. And we still don't know the full picture. But so you've got all these external threats and stresses, you've got this, the idea that you try to do the old way with the new way. And and I feel like the brain and we just don't understand the body is actually not good. And in a virtual world, the things that are missing that the brain is trying to figure out. All of that adds up to a big inside. Is that Holly Hill? That's placeable. That's experiment from all let's do some different things. I haven't seen any one great solution. That's probably where I feel like we still structured a little in the old habits, and we haven't, to, to Yeah, smile. Yeah. So there you go. That's not an answer. But some Rick have some reflections on what we're observing. Unknown Speaker 1:04:23 Yeah, in the I don't want to self promote too much. But I have a forthcoming book called suddenly virtual, how to make remote meetings work, which is actually answering a lot of the questions about how to make your virtual meetings effective. it verifies I have data that verifies that zoom fatigue is real. It's not just a function of having a lot of meetings. We had meeting fatigue before. Now we have this and it's actually more than, than just the regular meeting fatigue. And there's a lot of really good insights that I provide, but also a friend of mine, Karen Reed, who I think And you're gonna think you might have met at one point or another, personify some insights, particularly to the on camera aspects of it. Because there's new skills that we need to have, like, I'm looking@a.on my camera, so that way I can look you in the eye, but I'm not looking you in the eye, but look me in the eye, and look like I'm looking off some other direction. So those two things are insights that are there, and I'm happy to share some of those, you know, now and later. And, and, and, and in the future, when, when possible. And I know at least we're talking about updating our meaningful meetings, class around some of these things as well. So Andy Walshe 1:05:32 I love it. And I'll throw one thing at you just one thing we haven't heard based on that Linda is, which I've talked, just like literally yesterday, just do some phone meetings, get off, don't do meetings, if you can help it, obviously. But this is not a jumping, swap a few meetings out just for the phone during the day, because it gives you such a response. And it gives you such a refraction. So that's one thing I should have mentioned Sergio, and Linda cut you off. No worries, Unknown Speaker 1:05:57 you good. Yeah, walk, Elise Keith 1:06:00 get on the phone and go for a walk, right? Like if it's something that's about connection, how awesome is that lousy if you need to take action items and decisions in documentation. So be clear, clear about what kind of meeting you're walking through. But so Joe, awesome, awesome news for you. That is the link to our 2021 science update event that you and I have planned for February 25. That will be the capper for this series. And speaking of cappers, it's time to cap our session today. So today we are tackling leadership in for exceptional teams leadership in meetings using leadership. Oh my gosh, what a soupy, huge, messy topic. Right? So that makes this a sense making session. And it's our moment now to try and make sense of what we've achieved here today, if anything. So as part of that, for those of you who have been with us before, it's time for our bluff. So our bottom line up front, for those people who were not here today, as they go to watch the recording later, what's one thing that they should keep their eyes open for what's one thing they should know? Or or have in their minds that they can then be attuned to, as they go through this later? I invite you to unmute and speak. I would love to hear from as many voices as possible or type in the chat. Jurgen Heitman 1:07:33 I'll jump in if no one's talking. Unknown Speaker 1:07:35 Yeah, it's open go. Jurgen Heitman 1:07:36 Yeah, so one of my one of my overall, you know, traits is constantly committing that common common purpose around the organization and the people, why are they there? What's that sacred soul, but that, that feeling of why they show up every day. And those shared goals towards you know, the mission in the community that you're working with, is always coming back to the absolute basics, that that common purpose, that shared purpose, that's the most inspiring, most foundational piece of, of why you exist. Elise Keith 1:08:07 Wonderful, I see a reflection on that too, from Sue mittens, who says authenticity. Andrew, Andrew Webster 1:08:15 hi, um, I may have inferred this through my own filters. But I think I heard you can say something like great leaders are willing to be responsible for consequences, not just outcomes. Andrew Webster 1:08:28 It strikes me that the economists, convenience of negative externalities has allowed people to get away with ignoring consequences. I'm saying yoga, not good. So we'll leave it there excellent, Elise Keith 1:08:46 wonderful, other voices, who has something different, they're pulling something different, that is obvious, maybe and this just helped reinforce Brian. Unknown Speaker 1:09:03 In the very beginning, we were talking about empathy. And that's a key trait of strong leaders. So I think if you then went back and listen to the whole recording, remembering that empathy is important, you get it, see it light up several times throughout the session. Elise Keith 1:09:22 Don't fun. This gives me a great idea for what to do with the Tran audio transcript. I'll do a count Oh, it will say empathy, and empathy, empathy, empty. Loading the dice a bit. Unknown Speaker 1:09:35 Amy, did you have something? Amy 1:09:38 I also put it in the chat. But I think one of the things that stood out to me right and it was said almost right away in the beginning is the importance of staying true to your own personality, as leader and building from that versus trying to fit a mold of like this is a great leader. So Thank you for that. Patty Brandemeir 1:10:02 I'd love to pivot off of that. Because the one thing that I heard that really captured me especially Juergen was the consistency of leadership in long term uncertainty. Because you're talking about being the best leader or the leader with all the answers, Andy, like you were saying, from your own leadership learning journey, but it's being consistent and expectations of what people can expect from you, and you can expect from them in meetings into larger execution. So that just really, really stuck with me. And I think we're going to steal that Unknown Speaker 1:10:33 our Andy Walshe 1:10:35 clarity, I would say, just not to focus on it. But even being consistent in your in your faults, like, I think, try and fix them and try and fix them. But people, it's fun when you walk in a room and they go, okay, no, he's gonna do this, but he's probably not gonna say that. And they start to step and fill in the gaps for you, I think there's a real, and they like that consistency. They know when you're going to be on and when you're not, it's hard when they when you pivot off their authenticity. Patty Brandemeir 1:10:59 I always use color to like play to my strengths and delegate my weaknesses to somebody else's strengths. Because I think one of the chats was like, how do you get other people's aspirations into the room? How do you get other people's voices? This is it. You don't have all the answers. Don't wait for us leaders to be good. Elise Keith 1:11:16 You have to help us do that for you. So yeah, I agree. awesome, amazing. All right. Thank you, everybody. So so much, I think those are great takeaways. And in terms of takeaways, we will also make the recording available the chat transcript, and then that group map where we've started to make sense of this, that's not going away, you see questions on there, you want to answer later, you see links that you want to put in there, you have tips and takeaways you want to build on Go for it, let's leave that bad boy up and make that an even better, more rich resource. Going forward, you can expect an email within the next couple of days with all of those things, I'll edit the recording a bit, put that together. And, and then in the future, we have more of these events. They're all of those of you who have been here through several they're all very different. Our next one is next year. So please, please, please have a fabulous holiday in the interim. And then come back and join us next year as we talk with Matt Abrahams about how to keep groups on track with grace. He's a fabulous engaging communic strategic communication expert working out of Stanford. After that, we'll meet with sheer Murata who is the CEO of Kota, who will talk about keeping, tracking meeting records, basically. And then Joe and I will be back to talk about what we've learned in 2021. We should invite Karen. Unknown Speaker 1:12:41 Yes, Unknown Speaker 1:12:42 Joe. That'd be great. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:12:44 the greatest if she could join us. Elise Keith 1:12:46 Cool. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for spending your morning. Evening afternoon with us. We really loved having you here. Thank you, Andy and Juergen for sharing all of your time with us in your perspectives. Unknown Speaker 1:12:58 Oh, thanks, Andy. You're again, Jurgen Heitman 1:13:00 guys. Have a wonderful. Hi, Andy Walshe 1:13:03 Elise. Hey, cheers, everybody. Bye bye. Unknown Speaker 1:13:07 Thank you. Bye, everybody. Thanks. Nancy Settle-Murphy 1:13:10 Happy Holidays. Unknown Speaker 1:13:12 You Unknown Speaker 1:13:15 all right.