Elise Keith 0:00 Excellent. So it is now exactly nine o'clock. And we love to start on time. I know we have folks still joining in, and they'll get to like, join us on the fly as we go. So welcome today Today we're talking about building purpose building processes worthy of your team's commitment. And it's kind of a funny title. Um, but here's where it comes from. So this session is one of 10, all of which are aligned with the 10 science back rules for meaningful meetings, which is a synthesis study that was done by a whole bunch of scientists and researchers about what are the things that we know science shows us work well in meetings? And one of the rules is that you need to build commitment to the process, in your group with your team to have a successful meeting. Nancy White 3:33 been caretakers for this land, and made this land the rich, beautiful place that it is. And I acknowledge that I am here on this land and thankful that I can be a settler on this land. And if you feel so, so moved, you could put your land acknowledgement in the chat. Elise Keith 0:58 begging the question, how do you create a process that you can get your team to commit to? That's worth creating that commitment. So that's today's job, we're talking about building commitment to that purpose. So a couple of housekeeping things, and you'll see this in the chat. Today, our session is scheduled for 90 minutes. It is as I mentioned, part of this course The link is in there we are recording it. So if you have any objections to being recorded, please turn yourself off. don't contribute because we are recording and otherwise you'll be part of our wonderful archive. Um, and our host today is Nancy white. And Nancy, I invited to bring into this session because a Nancy is amazing. She is a liberating structures guru have fabulous engagement and play and fun, and how do you both do things that are deep and meaningful without having to take yourself so ding dong seriously, that you can't actually enjoy the work as you go on, and have all of the rules, this particular rule was really one of the harder ones to like, turn into action. So it requires a lot of sense making on our part. And Nancy is absolutely one of the best people I know on the planet to help us make sense of how to do something squishy, like building commitment to process in meetings. So Nancy, I'm super, super thrilled that you were so generous to share your time with us. And we are looking forward to to playing. Okay, well, I'm Nancy White 2:46 going to jump right in, and I am going to share my tribal land acknowledgement with you. It's the practice that I have committed to and bringing into my meetings. So it may or may not have resonance for you where you are in the world. But I'd like you to think about the land you are currently on. And maybe you are of the First Peoples of that land. Or maybe you are like me a settler on that land. And I want to acknowledge that I am on duwamish land today. In Seattle. Normally I'm in swinomish land, but there's a big storm and a fear of electricity outages sent me scurrying for the city for this morning. But I want to acknowledge that the duwamish people have Nancy White 3:50 And that gives us a way to recognize what came before. And when I think about process for my team. what came before is one of those things, we don't invent everything out of the genius of our own little brains, we don't create the resources, out of some magic of our fingers. We are building on what comes before in my in my field, we often call that standing on the shoulders of the practitioners who came before us and the theorists who came before us. So there's, for me, there's just a lot of layers in this. And I really, really appreciate those layers. And to get us having a sense of who is in the room, and what people are thinking we're going to do a modification of a liberating structure. And I can talk about liberating structures later if that's useful, or give you resources of a thing where you rapidly share ideas with people, and it's called mad tea and we're figuring in the days of too many zoom meetings mad isn't necessarily what you need in a zoom call. So what has evolved, a practice that has evolved is called calm tea or chatter fall and I'm going to give you a prompt off paste it in the chat box, I'll stop sharing the screen. And I want you to think about that the, the prompt and complete, generally it's completing the sentence and type your answer in the chat, but don't hit enter. So sometimes I have to put my fingers up because I forget because I want to hit enter. It's a habit, right? And then when I say go, you'll all put your answers in, and then we can scroll up and look and see what other people have put up there. And it's a really lovely way to see what's going on. So the first prompt, I'm going to put a little marker in the chat first. So this way, we'll know where this prompt started. And by the way, thank you, all of you, who did put your land acknowledgments in there. I'm going to go back and read them afterwards, because I treasure them now. So that's important. So here's your first prompt. What is the first word that comes to mind when someone says process? So go ahead, typing in the chapter, don't hit Enter, and maybe look up and give me a visual cues. And so many of you are on video, which is wonderful. I'll know that you're done. But since it's one word, it won't be a lot of time. Thanks, Madeline. Unknown Speaker 6:07 Look at. Okay. Nancy White 6:11 Okay, hit Enter. And then take a moment and scroll up and see what Madeleine 6:20 the rest of this group said. Nancy White 6:30 Oh, it looks like there's some wicked questions in there. I like this. I like this. Boy, you're my people. Okay, so here comes the second one. How, if at all, does process add value to your and I should say not just your meetings, but to your team? often an expression of our process, our team process happens in meetings, but this really can go beyond meetings. So how does process if at all, add value to your meetings? Nancy White 7:11 Okay, good answer. Let's see if we got narcissist at bay. That's what I'm laughing at blessing. Oh, yeah, man, Unknown Speaker 7:28 that Nancy White 7:29 I have to comment on this one. Because I know, I usually don't like to comment. But I think when we think about group process, over control allows those people who always exert control and be the narcissist or just, that's their nature. And so like me talking all the time, if you spent 90 minutes me just talking, and maybe I'd let you type something, but I'm really controlling everything right. The process is designed to put me front and center to put my quote unquote, expertise front and center for me to control your behavior. Elise has the host powers with zoom. But if I had the host powers with zoom, then I'd have Unknown Speaker 8:07 real control Nancy White 8:08 right? At the other end of that continuum is no structure. What we in the liberating structures community fondly call the goat rodeo, you know, little baby goats jumping around and knocking things over and, you know, a freefall like, Okay, you guys, I'll come back in 90 minutes, and you talk about process for your team. And you know, and when we find the space between over control and under control, we have a place to unleash and engage everyone, not just the people who buy pathology or by practice or intention can dominate a space in a team. So I think this is just an exceedingly important thing. Richard, thank you for putting that there. So here's the third one. Where does process trip you up and generate negative or unintended consequences? Where does process trip you up? You guys are so helpful. You must be processed people. Okay, hit enter. Let's see. Unknown Speaker 9:21 Give it a scroll up. Nancy White 9:36 Ooh, when it's not applicable to all Oh, yeah, you have to follow the process, but I don't have to. Nancy White 9:48 Okay, like if we went back, after we finished this and took everything you put in chat, we'd be able to write a beautiful article. You're touching on like, all The the the things Okay, so now I'm going to a little shift here. I asked you about process first, what is the first word that comes to mind when you hear the word practice? Madeleine 10:14 So as opposed to process, practice, Unknown Speaker 10:27 just a Nancy White 10:29 little hand access. Okay? If you haven't moved if you have, this is like your fourth or fifth meeting, when you put your hands up, you could also move your body and give it give it some love and kindness. If this is your first meeting the day Lucky you. Madeleine 10:44 Okay, let's take a scroll back. The Alpha of efficiency? Nancy White 10:58 I'm very curious. I don't know what that means. Madeleine 11:03 Louis, Madeleine 11:05 you're muted if you're if your answer. Yeah, Louis Vareilles 11:08 of course, I don't know that. We said the the alpha of omega alpha process. So if you want to be efficient, you you need to start by practicing. Unknown Speaker 11:17 Okay. Nancy White 11:18 Beautiful. Okay, that totally makes sense. No, no, sorry, for my, you know, I'm not sorry. Thank you for engaging me and causing me to ask a question. I'm not sorry at all. Unknown Speaker 11:30 Thanks. Okay. Unknown Speaker 11:33 So here's the last one. Nancy White 11:39 If there was one aspect of your team's behavior work that would benefit from a useful practice, Unknown Speaker 11:44 it would be Nancy White 11:47 and this is building on your sense of what processes are what practices. So one thing you'd really love their practice to be different, better useful. Give you a little more time with this one. This one's a little trickier. Madeleine 12:26 Okay, go ahead and hit enter. Let's see if we get Unknown Speaker 12:32 walk back up the waterfall and see if we got Nancy White 12:56 it's funny Elise as I as I look at these Elisa and I had a couple of prep calls. Because when she first found when she first contacted me, I can said Why are you contacting me? I you know, you know, when someone says rules, I tend to get an allergic reaction. And I I had this way of operating that is pretty emergent versus codified. And so I just thought it was kind of humorous that Elise contacted me. And and as we had began to have our initial conversations, we were thinking about why this stuff has meaning. It's not the stuff itself. It's the purpose, the meaning of the stuff. And you again, if I look at the the spread of things that you identified as important in your team, I would say these are kind of like the alpha to go back to Louis, to your language of the things that allow humans to do things together, not just teams, I mean, families, communities, they're, they're really resonant sort of heuristics themselves. So again, it's really interesting. You guys have just covered it in five questions, if you answering it with just enough diversity amongst you to show different facets of the issue. So it's going to be interesting to see how Elise and I play off this and use that emergence compared to what we've planned. And I want to tell you a little bit about Oh, up perp a process in practice. Does anybody want to take a stab at what they think is the difference between process and practice? I'll give it a go. Thanks, Heather. Go for it. Unknown Speaker 14:45 Sure. Unknown Speaker 14:46 Ah, processes Nancy Settle-Murphy 14:48 a deal. It's what you hope the procedure to be and practices what actually happens. Yeah. Nancy White 14:56 And process becomes made real through practice. But process as a list of things, does not necessarily impact practice. So this, I think, the fundamental thing that really came up in Elise, and my initial conversation was processes meaningless without practice. And so really paying attention to how process translates into practice, to me is the sweet spot here. And we're going to do a, we're going to frame this through kind of three questions of what you know, what do we mean by process and how it helps your team, right? We're going to do some analysis of so what so how does that add value or not? Or complicate things or whatever? And then the final question of our time together will be well, so what so what do you want to do with the insights that you know, the things that you start imaginatively in the, in your mind in the chat that you liked or loved? How do you want to take that forward in your work? What So what now what is one of the liberating structures, it's very familiar, it comes from roots of very long established practice, so it wasn't invented, right. And we're using that as kind of a story spine for today and using some different liberating structures within that spine. So we did call them to chat or fall, we're going to go into a little bit of exposition at least and I talking about what science says about process, then we're going to do another liberating structure that helps us kind of look at current state of our, our of our process, and its practice, perhaps, and then we'll do another one that allows you to think about what you want to do with it, you'll have some time to engage with peers here to get feedback on that idea, maybe grow it or shrink it and whatever is appropriate, and then we'll do a little reflection at the end. And that'll take us to the end of our 90 minutes. Did I forget anything? At least, because I'm apt to? Elise Keith 16:57 No, I think that's a, that's the plan everybody down with the plan. Alright, commitment to process achieved. Nancy White 17:06 I'm going to put the slide again, I'm gonna put the slide deck URL in here. For those of you who got here a little bit later, I don't necessarily follow it, it's a place for me to remember things. At one point, we'll take some notes in there. And at the end, there's a bunch of slides that are just resources that we may or may not tap into. But it's there for kind of an after effect more than a presentation effect. That's why I try not to do too much slide presentation. But I do go and peek at it go like what is it that we're going to do next? What is it we're going to do next? Which reminds me that now Elise and I are going to use a structure called users experience fishbowl, which has many ways of being practice, we're going to do the very simplest one, where we're just going to have a conversation between us about what you know what we think we mean by this, designing a process where the of your team, we're going to take about 10 minutes. And I would encourage you to take notes or things that you have questions about in the chat. We won't necessarily answer all those questions right now. But often those answers show up in the course of the rest of our time together. So Elise, let's set the clock here. I'm going to make myself a note because I'm not paying attention to time very well. today. I said to Elise, I need a little help today on time. But, you know, there you she's got the big timer. I love the big timer. And if you prefer you can put you can pin us or Elise can pin us often in fishbowl. We can tell people you can turn off your camera, but at least Why don't you just pin both of us because that's one of the newer features of zoom. That's nice. Elise Keith 18:46 I got you pan, and then I have to make myself show up again. So I can like and find myself and then open myself but yeah, absolutely. All right. Nancy White 18:57 Yeah. So I'd like you to help us to talk about what the science is about the commitment to process. What's the baseline here. Elise Keith 19:04 So I think one of the things that's important to understand about meeting science in general is that it follows you know, some of the underlying principles of basic scientific process, which means that what the meeting researchers are often doing is looking at meetings as they occur in the wild, and then trying to isolate manipulate individual variables. So oftentimes, they are discovering emergent practices and then showing one or two things. So it's very, very different from what you're going to encounter when you come to a session like this, where you're working with folks who have well facilitated well planned exercises. So I just want to set that ground level. And one of the things that emerged was that when you saw a meeting Where there was some agreement upfront about how that meeting was going to run, usually expressed either as an agenda or by saying out the norms, right, the ground rules of the meeting. And then the meeting as it ran along, referred back to those commitments to that process that was established and what they, what they literally say in the science is that a higher incidence of procedural communication, increases meeting satisfaction and engagement. And so procedural communication can sound like this, it can sound like, okay, we just finished up agenda item one. Now let's go on to two, or, hey, we've still got five minutes left, have we accomplished what we need to do, or anything that's like, verbally touching back onto the agreed upon process, and then putting that process in front of people? So, so that's what the science says. And in the science, it's really remarkable and novel, finding, because the vast majority of meetings of the sciences is usually looking at one meeting at a time, they're just now starting to look at sequences. And one of the findings from this year has been that fewer than 8% of meetings out there on calendars in the wild have any statement of what that meetings purpose is, or agenda. So, so there's lack of procedural commitment, lack of process of any kind is is the norm. So Nancy White 21:41 and as we've seen in the last nine months, is that practice taken from offline put online, can be perceived inexperienced as even worse? Elise Keith 21:51 Right? So I was in a panel right before this call, actually, remote coaches for agile organizations. And they were talking about the back to back meeting phenomenon. And in their universe, they're like, well, this is all brand new. We've never had that before. 2020. And, and what was fascinating, because, you know, go do many, many organizations, nope. Right. But it's a lack of there. The Ahmed 22:21 the Elise Keith 22:22 notion from the panel was that, you know, there's nothing to be done, all of this just emerges. So the question of process in the research is, how do you insert enough process so that it's not all emergent, and then getting commitment, using your words, to basically get agreement? That there is a problem, and we're going to follow it? Is, is the key to having more successful meetings? Nancy White 22:50 So to me, the the translation of that, from a practitioner perspective, is that, are we Elise Keith 22:58 self aware of what we're doing, Nancy White 23:01 as a starting point, to understand how to make deliberate choices about how to do things so that our team processes better? Are we self aware of how much of those process decisions are conscious or unconscious are based on our own needs, not on the needs of the others around us? So, you know, thinking about them, not just me? And what values sit underneath those choices? And it's really interesting to have conversations with groups about values, and they talk at this lofty, we're inclusive, right? But how those values get translated into process and practice. They're so far apart. They're not, they're not described in a way that people could say, Yes, I recognize that that is or isn't happening, right. I know, I can bring it up, I have language to talk about it. I'm working with a group right now, which is full of, okay, middle aged and older white men who are really, really smart. And whose process excludes just about everyone else, and they say they want to be inclusive. Right. And so, really, it you can't bolt on process onto that without going down to really what's underneath it. So process requires that introspection that we may not always devote time to so for me, I would love science to look at how self aware leaders are or conveners are when they design a meeting. And I use design saying and if I just show up and start the meeting, that's a design, okay? Was it a conscious design was that a fruitful design was the practice good, but it's still they made a choice to call a meeting and show up that's a design. So, so this, this, this, this comes to the other part that I really resonate with the science and can see into practice and process, which is purpose in the intention. So I want to kind of hold on to some of those things. And the other thing is this is just an editorial comment, right? I would love for these researchers to come hang out with us process people and see how they how they frame things. How would that change? Because there's some really interesting work going on. But I don't think it's in the eyes of the researchers. Elise Keith 25:30 I know that to be the fact. But I think I think the thing that is that is really distinct between what we see in high end practice and the sciences, and that this particular rule gets into is that there is an assumption when you're in when you're in a place where people run excellent meetings as an ongoing basis, that you have permission to do so. Right. So we've talked about process, we've talked about practice, and then there's permission. And this notion of procedural communication, which is this very scientific sort of stiff sounding way of saying that, hey, I can say, you know, I haven't heard from Alex yet. Hey, looks like we're running short on time. Hey, you know, should we actually be stopping and getting the group involved here pretty quick, because we've it looks like we've got one minute left here, Nancy? Yeah, yeah, I, I have permission to say that. But I have been given permission to say that not only by my role here, as as the host, but also because I've been in environments with groups where I've heard it modeled, I've seen it done. So I think when we get back to this, the higher purpose of what we're talking about here today, right building commitment to the process in your team as a way to help them run better meetings, a lot of that is exposure to practice and process until and then modeling that permissioning modeling that that procedural communication in a way that that like, like you were saying, your your gentlemen, friends who need help, becoming more inclusive through practicing inclusion Unknown Speaker 27:16 is what sets that stage. Nancy White 27:18 And I just I, Stephen, I appreciate what you put in there is that a self managed approach may be one of the procedural goals. It may not. That doesn't mean the practice and the process is crappy. And there's no commitment to process in practice, how people choose to express their power relations have a lot of contextual meaning that I can't make an assumption that me wanting everybody to be unleashed and engaged is actually their value. But it's, are they clear that their value is we'd rather have centralized control? And here's the reason why. And, you know, there may be reasons in some places for that to happen. So I'm, I'm also trying to be aware of my values, what I think is good process isn't necessarily good process for everyone. But if you can't name it, you can't model it. You can't describe you can't practice it. Well, then. Elise Keith 28:14 So and I think, you know, I mean, that that's that self managed teams thing brings up a great opportunity to look at some really dichotomous groups, right? So you get some self managed teams who are doing commercial work or social work, but then you've got folks like, first responders, military emergency teams, where self management is not really what you want in the operating room. Right? You really want, you really want coordinated, leadership driven. And in both areas, whether you're going hierarchical or self managed, you see the amount of communication about exactly how are we working here together, who's doing what and what's acceptable at each moment, as we move through this process together, increase. Nancy White 29:02 And I want to I want to footnote that before we transition to the next part of this flow is that there's also a belief in many places, that process is a waste of time. That process isn't about getting work done. They're just going to talk about process. So I think there's a practice around the process talk and the procedural talk, and I think procedural talk and process chalk are related and not the same. So that could be another fun thing to tease out at a later date. But I get that the eye roll. Oh my god, we're Unknown Speaker 29:36 gonna talk about process. Madeleine 29:37 If you ever gotten that I will. Always Nancy White 29:42 thank you for the comments in the chat. They're part of what we're paying attention to. And part of what I'm going to pay attention to afterwards is I do my own personal sense making because that's how I learn. Practice, go back and reflect, practice, go back and reflect. Um, we want to now get kind of a baseline. line of what sorts of commitment to process you are or aren't seeing in your work. And we're going to do an exercise called triz. But before we do, again, take a moment to breathe if you need to wiggle, you know this meeting after meeting, I do realize that when we used to have back to back face to face meetings, we at least got to stand up and walk to the next room, or stand up, go to the bathroom, right. But sometimes we don't have that in the in the zoom life, because it's so easy just to click the Next button. So this, this liberating structure comes, it's part of a Russian design engineering process. I cannot speak Russian. So I will not butcher that word there. But it basically translates to the theory of solving ingenious problems. I just want to add a a procedural note here as the name probably is not appropriate. The because of the appropriation of a tiny piece of a larger process is not always perceived positively. And it's often perceived as a control move. So I do want to own that I didn't name this. It's the name that has become associated with it. And it's an ongoing conversation. But again, there's a little procedural, at least recognize that something doesn't quite sit right. And needs to be attended to it hasn't been attended to Madeleine 31:25 yet. Nancy White 31:27 So I'm going to first ask you, I'm gonna put this prompt in the chat. And I'm going to stop showing the slides in a second. But this just gives me a cut and paste moment, because I like to cut and paste into the chat. Unknown Speaker 31:39 Okay, Nancy White 31:40 back to the chat, my screen is going very slow. Okay, so I'd like you. Nancy White 31:47 Is that did that? No, it didn't paste. Okay, I could do it again, because it didn't paste. Nancy White 31:55 Sometimes, if you don't hit that Ctrl C and Ctrl V with another vigor on this laptop, it doesn't work. Okay. So first of all, I'd like you to think how you would design process that would reliably get nothing done with your team, that they will have a terrible experience, your leadership and credibility would be severely damaged. And in fact, what they're saying about you when you walk away is bad news. So I want you just to grab a piece of paper, I, you know, I, when I put the invisible background, your paper doesn't show up, and just make a list of all the elements that would go into designing a team process, that would reliably get you complete failure, and we give you about a minute here, to write them down, I strongly encourage you to write them down. There's something about that whole processing of the brain and again, thinking about typing versus writing and all this parts of our body. So Unknown Speaker 33:16 I just put no chocolate on mine. It's just really Unknown Speaker 33:20 terrible, terrible process. Elise Keith 33:35 I know another finding from the science that fits here is that leaders tend to think what they do is fabulous. So if you do ratings on processes or meetings afterwards, the rating from the meter leader tends to be much higher than it was from everybody else. Nancy White 33:56 I've also seen the reverse of that, which is very interesting, is because when the leader felt like they didn't get the process, they wanted the procedure they didn't want they wanted, they will rate it low, even if the rest of the team thought it was fabulous. And it goes to that reflection piece. Okay, do you have that? A Fistful of terrible things. And I encourage you to go back to gallery view, because and you turn your cameras on because it was so lovely to see your faces. So there's a couple of new people who've joined us since I last saw the gallery view, waving to you, you know who you are. Okay, so now I want you to look at that list, and pick like the top four worst things and write them in the chat. Okay, now, as you do that, Elise and I are going to copy them into a slide. This is going to be a little funky and awkward, but we're gonna make it work. And if you'd like to paste it directly into the slide, I will also not put an obligation to that But it's slide 13 and I'll put the Come on. My computer is like, not responding. There we go. Unknown Speaker 35:11 Put that slide deck link in there. Okay. Nancy White 35:18 Elise, do you want to tell me where you're cutting and pasting and then I'll cut and paste someplace different? Elise Keith 35:24 I'll start in the bottom corner. And I love the people who are helping us too. That's great. Unknown Speaker 35:29 Okay, Nancy White 35:30 well, this is above average intelligence group here, Elise Keith 35:34 but these groups always are. Madeleine 35:37 Okay, I'm going to go to the top. Nancy White 35:43 I'm having trouble with my mouse, which is making it even more fun. Unknown Speaker 35:48 All right. Elise Keith 35:50 So I've got a ignore feedback. Explain why it isn't useful. How to do it? Whoo. I like this one. Nancy White 36:01 Elise. I'm not having success, because my mouse has frozen. Yeah, Elise Keith 36:04 I'm just, I'm just just catching it. And somebody if you've got one that you see in there, you're like, you have to catch that. That's amazing. Not recording results. I like that. Too many steps. Unknown Speaker 36:25 There we go. Elise Keith 36:31 Ask has to use email as the chat function. That's funny. Elise Keith 36:46 Oh, they've got that one. All right. Make only one person speak. Somebody want to. I love the I love that. These are in chat to help us with the scribing. Somebody want to just call out like one that they think is really fabulous. Oh, that's a great idea. Nancy White 37:04 I like cutting off deep, deep engagement. We have to move on. Sorry, boy, I've done that. Huh? Oh, man. Elise Keith 37:11 I see a start late and take personal calls and leave without giving good advice. So I have a client story on this one, we had worked with a client and they said, We need this feature so that if the person who's in charge of the meeting doesn't show up, the rest of us can start the meeting and run it without them. But otherwise the people who are not in charge shouldn't be able to touch any buttons just only if the person in charge doesn't come. Teachers. Unknown Speaker 37:52 Okay, all right. Nancy White 37:54 Okay, so I'm just gonna kick those catch those ones on the upper left. Elise Keith 38:03 Running way over time. You got it right. Nancy White 38:07 Now I'm going to move that floater. Okay. Okay, Madeleine 38:10 I think we got those. Okay. Elise Keith 38:14 Does anybody have anything here about I'm getting too rigorous, like over controlling? Is there one in there that about like having having a crazy intense, multi layered plan Ahmed 38:28 that says pack too much somebody or trying to pack too much in? Great. Unknown Speaker 38:38 Okay. Madeleine 38:42 Look at this, okay. Madeleine 38:45 So Ahmed 38:46 just take a minute, just a process check. So I wonder if we have 34 participants in zoom, but only 16 in this Google Sheet. Nancy White 38:57 I don't think everybody's in the Google Sheet. That's a good observation. Oh, look at that. A procedural Madeleine 39:03 communication. Elise Keith 39:06 Jazz hands for procedural communication. So Nancy White 39:12 I'm going to screen share now. So if you would come back to the zoom area, because we're going to use the annotation feature. Nancy White 39:23 And I'm just going to clean this up a little bit. I wish I could understand why my Nancy White 39:31 so in the top of your screen, excuse me, there should be a more and there should be a choice to choose annotate. And if you have any trouble with this, just speak up. We'll help you the annotate should pull up a little sub menu and on the annotate menu, there's a stamp. And I'd like you to pick a checkmarks or an X marks as a question mark might be a little too ambiguous. put a checkmark on whatever one of these things that you actually do. How does it show up actually in your world? Madeleine 40:11 So it's Madeline here? I'm sorry, I don't know how to annotate Can Can you just give me so Nancy White 40:19 look at the top of your zoom screen, where it says you are seeing Nancy's screen. And there should be an options button or a more button depends on how big your screen is, like she's got it. Yeah. And it put put a marks on whichever ones, you know, you're not limited to. Elise Keith 40:48 One of the things that actually happen in your world today. Nancy White 40:55 And you may be the perpetrator or the perpetrator, gee, Unknown Speaker 41:05 wow. Elise Keith 41:12 It's a what a fabulous contrast Nancy to see the worst of the worst covered in green checkmarks. Nancy White 41:18 Well, there's somebody who was really into the red X on make only one person speak to the entire duration. Madeleine 41:25 Sorry, my frog in my throat there. Nancy White 41:29 So so when I do this, usually, there's somewhere between 50 and 75% of the things checked, because we're a diverse group. I didn't expect 100% of them to be checked. That boy Look at this, it shows up in our work. Madeleine 41:47 So um, Nancy White 41:49 we have a context where we have actually, we, I'm making an assumption that you as a group, have a good sense of a commitment to process. And yet we see indicators of a lack of a commitment to process around us all the time. So we've done an analysis, we've kind of described what a commitment to process means we've talked about how it shows up negatively, or a lack of commitment shows up. So let's pivot now to a little conversation about what do we do with this data? So I want you to look at this for a minute. And then I'm going to save this picture, and then I can paste it in the slides again later. Madeleine 42:34 Okay. Nancy White 42:37 So what does this tell us? So I'm gonna stop, share and invite you back to the chat. Nancy White 42:48 And what does this What does the trip? What did the trip results tell us? Nancy White 42:56 And you can pick up the mic too, because we're such a lovely sized group that would be quite comfortable. We're human. Unknown Speaker 43:06 Amen. For Elise Keith 43:13 me, we don't always practice what we preach. Nancy White 43:21 So when we have data in front of us, um, where is the intervention point? For you, for us? What, excuse me, hold on, I'm gonna pause to clear my throat. There, I banish the frog. Now maybe I didn't manage the frog. Where's the moment a place you could intervene and do one thing to raise the commitment to process that would get rid of one of those things. So if you think about what to stop doing, and I'm going to just quickly, I'm going to put that picture in. So give me one second. At least tap dance for me for a second. Elise Keith 44:08 So one of the things I think actually I had really keyed on to before we did this exercise was that the science rule is build commitment to the process. It's not a command, commitment to the process secure, dictate require its build, right? So as we start moving forward, and we're looking at what is the next best thing we can do if there are these things we are doing that that undermine our ability to, to reach? And you know, when we talk about process, what we're talking about is our agreement about how the way in which we will work together successfully. Right. And these things undermine our those agreements. So what is the one next thing that we might do to help build Some of that agreement, build that commitment. Okay, I'm Nancy White 45:04 just about ready. I'm sorry, my computer's just running like somebody poured molasses on it, which is really fun. But you know, we deal with it, we go with the flow. That's why you never do this alone. That's why Elise just saved my butt. And now now on slide 14, you can go back and see about what's one thing here that you could stop that would help build that commitment to process. So I'm pivoting slightly based on that feedback, Elise, from what we had talked about. And thinking about building the practice. So slide 15 has the prompt I can. I'm not going to screen share, I think your Is there anybody who needs me to screen share, because they can't access the slides? Elise Keith 45:51 I think, yeah, chill can her work, what doesn't doesn't love the Google? Nancy White 45:55 Then I'm going to go. And you can ignore the screenshare. Whoops, I didn't mean to show you my family photos. Okay, let me try that again. Let me try that again. Madeleine 46:12 There we go. I hit the wrong button. Nancy White 46:15 So I'm going to go back up to those elements. So you can see that if you can't be in, and again, thanks to I trying to remember who brought that up from recognizing that not everybody is in a Google Doc, and getting us there. So there's the screenshot. And you're going to think about what is one thing that you can do that you can stop doing trs is typically used to stop doing something so that you can build a better commitment to process for your team. And this, this thing should be something that you actually have agency to do, you have the power to decide to do it tomorrow. Today. There's this saying old saying that we have control over, we don't have control over 85% of the things we do particularly in work. But it could be life too. But there's always that 15%, where you have the freedom and the responsibility to do that now. And this is one of the liberating structures that I really adore. Because in complex or complicated situations, which I think the truth is revealed a lot of complexity, the first step is take the first step and see if it's going to move you towards your desired outcome, you're not going to know all the answers about how to get to the desired outcome. But if you don't take the first step, you certainly aren't going to get there. And it kind of builds on the idea of it's a compass, not a map, you clear what your purpose is, you want to build a commitment to process so that your team will thrive. But you're not quite sure exactly how to get there, we'll take a step. Just take a step. So I'm going to stop sharing, so I can come back and see the chat because you guys keep chatting so productively, I don't want to miss it. Unknown Speaker 48:00 Okay. Unknown Speaker 48:05 This is where my mouse won't scroll Elise Keith 48:07 right. Now and at this at this point, given that. Is this the point where we get to talk together? Nancy White 48:16 Yep, this is the point where we're going to put you in groups of let's see what our total number three feels. Feels good. Elise Keith 48:23 Yeah, you're going to be in groups of three to four. And there's always a little bit of mystery with an event like this, where everybody looks like they're here. But sometimes there's some people who are here in name only. They have not fully committed to the process. And sometimes there's a thing that happens where we say, Hey, we're going off into breakout groups, and this group gets suddenly smaller, we found that not only is purpose but processes your bouncer right, so you're going to be in groups of three to four. And if you are in some kind of group that turns out to be utterly defunct and lame, just holler and we will, we will reassign you to a group of people who actually are there and ready to talk to you. And you've got 10 minutes to discuss the question, and what is the question? And the question Nancy White 49:10 is your what's your 15% solution? So what is the one thing that you're going to do to stop some of those bad things from the triz? and get us to a commitment to process? Sorry, my power cord just fell out. Put it back. Elise Keith 49:25 All right, any questions about what's happening and what to expect from your next whisked away Nancy White 49:33 moments and eight minutes, at least 1010 1010 minutes, so you know, get some feedback from your peers. One of the things that I have sometimes with my first step is it's clear in my head, but it's not clear to anyone else. So by speaking to someone else, I can get some feedback about how to get clarity on that or maybe ideas on first steps. So, Elise Keith 49:56 alright, and in terms of how you get to the groups, what's going to happen is I'm going to To open the rooms and you're all going to be magically whisked away. If you haven't been in a zoom breakout room, this will be a fabulous magical, technologically abled experience. So, on your mark, get set, go break out Nancy White 50:17 some of the gang, Elise Keith 50:18 some of the gang, the tiniest of gangs, well, Nancy Settle-Murphy 50:22 I acknowledge the timer running out, but then it gives you a 62nd Countdown to automatically bring you Unknown Speaker 50:27 back so Elise Keith 50:29 we're just a minute ahead of the game. You guys are compliant. Nancy White 50:34 Ahmed, the Tuscarora lambs are you in Arizona? Ahmed 50:39 North Carolina. So Scott Ray. Yeah, they they do spread down here. Nancy White 50:45 So we're in North Carolina, Ahmed 50:48 Raleigh Durham area. Research Triangle Park. Nancy White 50:51 Okay. used to live in Durham, like early 80s. Ahmed 50:57 Well, short, it looks a little different. Nancy White 51:00 I visited a couple years ago. And it does look quite different. But parts of it still look the same. Right? The dives where I hung out aren't there anymore, though. Elise Keith 51:12 Welcome back. Welcome back. Here they are. So I can, you can always tell whether conversations in breakouts were interesting or not based on whether people let that timer run out, or whether it says breakout rooms are closing. And they're like, okay, thank God, and they click, click the button, and they're. So I hope those were interesting and useful for you, because we're going to send you back again, Nancy White 51:36 but different groups, this time, you're going to be with new people. And my invitation to you is to sharpen your 15% solution. And think about what would be an indicator that tells me I'm making progress. Because one of the things we know about human behavior is we can have aspirations up the yinyang. But if we don't notice, if those aspirations are turned into action that creates the change you want, we typically don't follow up with them. And we have difficulty engaging others in making that commitment to process. So an indicator can help you make commitment to your 15% solution. And it might possibly be the key to getting your team to also build that commitment as well. So I'm going to give you just 30 seconds to think about sharpening your 15% solution. And then Elise is going to send you away, we're going to go for like five minutes, this time, at least five minutes, and then we'll come back. And when we come back I am if there's something that you heard that you think the rest of us really need to hear, I'm going to invite you to say that too, because someone may have said something brilliant that we all need to hear that. Okay. Nancy White 52:49 30 seconds to sharpen and then you'll go on your way. I just noticed that you are using liberating structures. I just get the book to learn more about it. Excellent. And there's a community of practice, and an app and all sorts of great things. Elise Keith 53:08 Welcome back, Lauren, and Brian, and Becky and Nancy and Carolyn and Richard and Oh, hi, everybody. Welcome back. Unknown Speaker 53:18 Okay, Nancy White 53:20 so I'm just want to spend a few minutes for you reflecting on what you discovered in your two breakout groups that you think is really a value for all of us to share, it might be the 15% that you or someone else's is deciding to take or any other instance. So I just want to open up the floor to bring it to harvest the gems from those breakout sessions. Becky 53:50 I can go first. Um, I don't know if my group's solves all the world's problems. But one standout learning for me or a commonality that I saw was that a lot of the suggestions we were making revolved around gathering everyone's input to make sure we weren't making some change by mandate top down, but actually gathering people's input so that we had their agreement and commitment to that whatever change we would be implementing. Unknown Speaker 54:22 Right, thank you. Elise Keith 54:28 Nice. So who has something different they would like to share that came out for them? Madeline Allen. Madeleine 54:39 So I'm hoping this will be helpful, because it's not a solution. But it was the observation in both the groups that I was in that the back to back to back to back to back meetings all crammed in one day now because of the actual situation we're in with COVID means that people are so busy running, that taking the time to stop and think about solutions or the 15%. is, it's almost a luxury. I'm just wondering whether that could be brought into this somehow. Mm hmm. Unknown Speaker 55:23 That sounds like a permission to me. This is Nancy Settle-Murphy 55:26 right to have an opportunity to say this is Nancy Settle-Murphy 55:30 we're going to take the time right now Unknown Speaker 55:32 we're giving ourselves permission to pause. Nancy White 55:38 Well, and I think this is a really interesting observation about how silence or slowing down are considered negative things against productivity. So perhaps how we express these things and frame them for people might shift. Madeleine 55:57 I saw a lot of head bobbing on that one. Elise Keith 56:05 was a who in your conversation had something else come up? something different? Nancy White 56:15 Stephen, you keep on looking like you're about to talk? Me? Stefan 1 56:23 Which, which one? Unknown Speaker 56:25 Ah, Nancy White 56:28 maybe both of you were looking like you had something to say. Stefan 1 56:34 I would just be reiterating the pause moment, because that was what Madeline and I and Laura were chatting about in our breakout. So I'm good. You you move on to a different, Madeleine 56:48 Stephen. Yeah, Stefan Godo 56:50 thank you. So in both groups, we discussed quite a lot about the purpose of the meeting. And then cultural stuff, which side track side track side discussions and discuss whether the clearly stated purpose and people aligned around the purpose would Unknown Speaker 57:08 actually eliminate most of the problems? Probably not everything, but most of the problems? That was the main takeaway. Thank you. Well, that's, Elise Keith 57:21 that's a really great observation. Right. So clarity of purpose. You know, we talked earlier about purposes, your bouncer. And we've also seen that prep work is your bouncer. So requiring people to show up prepared, encourages some people not to show up. But in in both of those things, when they're clear, your audience gets smaller and smaller, and they become the people who are committed before they walk in the room. Nancy White 57:50 I'd like to just briefly bring up something Brian popped out of groups because of texts, we got a chance to talk to him during one of the breakouts. Is it okay to mention norm the enforcer? So Brian, do you want to just briefly explain what that is? Brian 58:05 a, a group that I facilitated, came up with several rules for conducting meetings. After recognizing that their meeting culture wasn't very strong. And after several brainstorming sessions to come up with these rules, and whittle it down to the sort of vital few, one of the things that the group and this was 50 directors came up with was the role of normally enforcer to keep everyone honest, and following the rules that they had agreed to. So one of the rules was that at the beginning of every meeting, roles are assigned, whether it's a subject matter expert, or a note taker, or a timekeeper. And one of the roles was Norm the Enforcer. Nancy White 58:56 So I think this is a lovely segue into indicators. So we also asked you to briefly think about what indicator would tell you that you're making progress on your 15% solution. So if we, if we have an indicator that we are going to hold each other accountable to something rolls, that would be a very specific indicator that you'd have tangible immediate feedback on it. Did anybody else come up with an indicator? And if so, would you either voice it or put it in the chat? Because sometimes this is a hard one. And it's the place where accountability begins to Nancy White 59:34 become tangible. Nancy White 59:48 Well, if you want to make money, there's a good way to do it, put $1 in a virtual jar every time you look at your phone, Elise Keith 59:54 you know, I know I know, a group that delta ritual around exactly that. So one of their commitments was that they would never speak ill of clients. Right? They are, they are here, we do not speak ill of those we serve. And so they created a box called the bozo box. And anytime somebody said something Ill of a client, they had to put a box in the bozo box. And it worked great for quite a while, but then that that ritual shifted on them to the point where somebody had had a bad day with one client, so they walked in with A Fistful of Dollars. And they went, could you Nancy White 1:00:31 could you could Ching, let me tell you, I need permission. So it was an opportunity to explore not only how can these agreements be useful for helping us shift a culture, but how can we also use them as indicators to see when we in fact need to do something different, right? When when we've become out of alignment when our process no longer serves. And you know, if you go back to the science piece is noticing procedural communication, calling it out while modeling it, those would be very specific indicators. So if you want to build on the science part of it, which is where we started, that could be one way to do it. Another way to do it is to think about how you think about process. So I become quite a practitioner of liberating structures, originally, because because it brought together a lot of facilitation approaches that resonated with me and expressed it in a certain way. But over time, I began to realize it's a way of paying attention to process. Okay, it's a way of noting, how are we inviting people into something? How is the group configured? What are the materials or the arrangement of the room that we need to pay attention to? What are the steps? How is power distributed? What are the steps of the process? So it gives me a kind of a pattern language to pay attention to what I'm doing. And it's lovely, because then I can look at anything of liberating structure and not and say, how was power distributed here? Do we predominantly have a pattern of only giving power to a leader? Or do we have a pattern of letting everyone say everything all the time, but never getting towards completion. So when we have a pattern that we can use, then we can actually begin to use procedural communication in a very flexible and agile way, no matter what process we're using, right? So it's, to me liberating structures gives me a way to reflect on my practice, to observe on the practices around me, and help them inform good process, the patterns of the practice have to be resonant with the process. And if we have a mismatch, so I've been really loving, liberating structures. At the end of the slide deck, I've shared some of our community's favorite like about liberating structures, stuff that allows us to pay attention at that kind of micro in the meeting moment, passing to Elise. Elise Keith 1:03:02 So I want to do a quick, quick sense check that how Who here is familiar with liberating structures, maybe maybe a third two thirds of the group. So I'm just a quick definition. And I think something useful for this group. So liberating structures is a set of methods you can use in meetings. And each one of them says, this is how you start it. This is how you get the group involved. And this is when you use it, and what you get out at the end, right? So for example, today, we did that chapter fall at the beginning, which is we ask these questions and people answer them. That's a liberating structure. Now, with that it's a micro structure, which means that it's a it's a set of steps you can use in meetings, and you can string them together. So I'm going to use this one. And then I'm going to do an interview. And then I'm going to do the triz, which is another one, and we're going to put them together, and then we've got ourselves a whole meeting. And you can apply them to almost anything. Right? In this case, we applied it to this meta meta meta building processes for meetings thing, but you can apply it to like triggers, you know, what are what how could we do this totally wrong? And what are we actually doing right now that looks like that? You can apply that to your, your own processes internally. You know, we want to be better at customer service. Well, how are we what would we do if we wanted to be terrible at customer service? Now, which of those things are we actually doing? Right? So so that's what a liberating structure is micro structures where when you change the question and you change the group, you can put them together in ways and all of a sudden, boom, you've got yourself an awesome meeting plan. And that's one level of the process and that's pretty much where the science plays the next level. of building commitment process that becomes quite empowering for groups is when you take not just a meeting, but you take a series of meetings, series of different types of meetings. And you put them together into what we call meeting flow models, but basically, ways of coming together over time to advance your team towards a goal. So simple example, you all have this in your practice already, at some point, when you get together as a team, you make a plan, right, you have a planning, meeting, strategic planning, whatever that might be. And then, you know, if you are wise, you will come together again later to make sure you actually are going to follow that plan, you'll have some sort of project check or some kind of status meeting or something, and then your plan is going to turn out to be totally bonkers, because it never worked. So you're going to need a replan or alerting, meeting and whatnot. And you put these things together, that is also a level of meeting process that you can design and create commitment to in advance. Nancy White 1:06:10 And I'm going to put a link in of one sort of meta view of meeting process. And then Nancy White 1:06:20 if if you have yours handy, at least you could throw us in otherwise I can go back and pull it out of the Elise Keith 1:06:26 our plan. This is it. This is an enormous part of what we do workwise at lucid meetings, is that that higher level and one of the reasons that I like working with folks like Nancy and all of my facilitator, friends who focus on the in meeting process, primarily designing fabulous meetings standalone, which we can then plug into these larger business processes to make sure that those are working great. And I'll throw a link in there. Great. So and we are coming up into our last five minutes. So before we do our final final recap and get ourselves off for the day, does anybody have an insight that's just come out to them or something that they would, they would love to make sure gets out into this group before we wrap up. Unknown Speaker 1:07:20 I'll, Nancy Settle-Murphy 1:07:21 I'll say something, um, I have this I find time with all of you, Unknown Speaker 1:07:29 all of my colleagues Nancy Settle-Murphy 1:07:30 so valuable. And we talked about taking the time to reflect to learn to think this is something this kind of meeting this kind of get together something I really consciously make time for when even if it means working late or working super early. I get so much out of these sessions. I just want to thank you, Elise and Nancy, and everyone else who I see crop up in these sessions is just been invaluable. Elise Keith 1:07:59 Thank you, Nancy. So, um, our final act heavily for these particular events. This, as I mentioned, this is one of 10. They're all in conjunction with our course on the 10 science backed rules for meaningful meetings. And as a learning event. conducted as part of an on demand video training course one of the things we do with these sessions is we create a video that adds to that course going forward for all time. And what I would love for you to help me do and to help yourselves do and help everybody who will ever see this again in the future is to create a clip quick takeaway for the folks who will watch the video later. And so what we do is we call this this is we get this from the military. It's brilliant. It's called bottom line up front. So what's our bluff? So in one word or short phrase, what's one thing that you feel people who aren't here should know that came up in this session one one thing you feel people in should know from this session, and I'm going to invite you to either to type that in the chat or go ahead and unmute yourself and lay it honest. what's what's the takeaway here today, folks? Elise Keith 1:09:30 process requires self awareness. I love that procedural communication is key. My scientist friends are just going to be so good at that somebody said this out loud in a practice forum. Nancy White 1:09:46 I want to add intentional, procedural procedural communication is key. Elise Keith 1:09:54 I would love to hear some voices. Does anybody like to unmute and share? Yes, Becky. Unknown Speaker 1:10:01 I am, Becky 1:10:03 I appreciate that the that there is value. In a culture that values productivity, there is value in taking the time to recenter around purpose and process. And to increase productivity in the long run, I think that can get lost. I think that has been implicit in today's conversation. Elise Keith 1:10:32 Awesome, right too busy chopping down the trees to sharpen the saw kind of a rat. Absolutely. Another voice Louis Vareilles 1:10:44 Yes, I would like to add one thing to what was said by Becky, it's a matter of productivity. But it's also a matter of engagement or, and, and quality of fucking life at the end. There are so many people, well destroyed by bad meetings, without purpose, without conclusion without drive without anything. But we're spending like 30 or 30 hours a week in meetings. And we are big expecting false. So it's very, very impactful. Nancy White 1:11:20 If you if you care about that, I encourage you to look at the new book by Etienne and Beverly Wenger trainer, it's called Learning for shoot, you can find it if you if you Google, I could look at it afterwards. But it builds on their value creation framework. And one of the things that they say that I think is so helpful is that to get to the transformational change, you have to get through many other layers of change, including immediate value. And one of the pieces of immediate value is feeling seen, heard and respected. It's to having time to process even though you can't directly always directly connect that to the productivity or transformation. But if you don't recognize those things, how will you recognize the larger things as you go along. So in fact, recognizing these intangibles, is productive. It's just framed as the door you have to get through to go to the next door in the next door. Elise Keith 1:12:18 It's right on right on. Love this, right get to the higher purpose, like what does it mean to work well together. And part of working well together means we attempt to end on time. So we are at exactly the end of time, we will stick around for another 10 minutes to chat with anybody. Here's what you can expect from me, and from our team going forward. So a couple of upcoming events, if you found this useful, completely different events, but also fabulous in their own unique ways coming up, those are linked to there, you'll get an email from me within the next couple of days with the edited recording from this call and links to all of the various and sundry resources in the chat in the slides. Anything else we think of that we think we can just throw in there, that will be amazing and awesome and helpful. And then all of that is is there for you. And then of course, we'd love your feedback. So if there are things you found here that were great, and we should do more of let me know if there are things we should change, let me know. And thank you so much for taking your time, coming together with us committing to this process of learning as I grew up, we really, really appreciate it. Unknown Speaker 1:13:31 Thank you. Nancy White 1:13:33 Grab your mic and say goodbye. And again, if you want to stick around for any last tidying up, we'll hang out. Because that's what we do. Madeleine 1:13:43 Thank you so much for that. Unknown Speaker 1:13:45 Thank you. Nancy Settle-Murphy 1:13:46 Thank you. Thank you. Nancy Settle-Murphy 1:13:49 Thanks for the emojis to Unknown Speaker 1:13:53 the bomb. Unknown Speaker 1:13:58 Yeah. Elise Keith 1:14:00 That's way up in the chat. I know some people weren't here. Nancy White 1:14:04 Ahmed. Thanks, again, for catching the Google Doc thing. I deeply appreciate that. Ahmed 1:14:08 Appreciate that. I have a question if that's okay. So please shared that course. The 10 science back rules for me. So in I seem to have missed the connection between what we did today, and what was there the recording? So how, how would that help improve or was the pitch to go and sign up on that? Elise Keith 1:14:32 on the course. Yeah. So the pitch is a It's awesome. So number one that did it. It is awesome. Unknown Speaker 1:14:39 I can vouch for that. Unknown Speaker 1:14:42 Here's a testimonial live. posted it yet. Thank you. It's Elise Keith 1:14:46 a great reminder. So So the 10 signs back rules for meaningful meeting. So here, let me just give you the backstory on this because it's kind of fabulous and fun. Um, last year, no 2000 Like October 2019, Logitech decided that they had all this money and they were going to solve a meaningful life problem. And so they got together with the folks at the Stanford D school. And they said, Well, what meaningful life problem could we solve? And they said, you know, we could solve, we could solve work meetings. That's what we're gonna do, we're gonna solve work meetings. And the way they decided to do it is they brought together high performance experts. So these guys are coaches to like the navy seals and Red Bull athletes and, you know, just crate like they help guys do near orbit jumps from the moon, and you know, like, it's crazy. And they say, and we'll get these guys together, and they'll solve meetings, we'll do a one day summit, it'll be great. Well, I'm, and I got to go, because I was a recognized meeting expert. And the short, short spoiler, we did not, in fact, solve workplace meetings. That single day was, but it was a fascinating networking event. And one of the things they did to help prep for that is they said, Okay, we're going to read all of this science, all of it, we're going to do a meta study on all of the science behind meetings, and pull out the like, the the things that all of the science seems to agree, and they came up with these 10 rules. And it was like, Well, okay, so that's interesting. So one of the lead researchers on the paper, and I looked at that, and I said, you know, we want to get these out there, people need to know about these 10 rules, and the 10 rules are things like take notes, and, you know, be leaders and, like, okay, really, that's gonna change the world, these ladies like, it's like a, you know, a listicle. Unknown Speaker 1:16:37 So, um, Elise Keith 1:16:38 so Joe and I got together, I said, well, let's take this further. And let's make a class. And you can explain the science, and then all talk about some teams in high performing meeting groups that are actually have practices that back up that science, right, someplace where they've done more than, you know, hey, we've got procedural communication, but they're actually doing this as a habit. And what does that look like? So we did our things. And then we looked at it, and I said, Well, that's useful. But But golly, that's the where sciences ad is pretty limited. So how could we take it farther? So for every single one of the rules, we invited somebody who was deep on that particular thing to do a session like this? I think this is the sixth. And there are four more to go. And I think Sue, and john and Nancy, you've been at most of them. They've all been pretty different. Yeah. Nancy White 1:17:30 Oh, the other Nancy is I've been to two. Sue Mitten 1:17:33 Yeah. Mm hmm. Yes. All of them have been fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice, it's a nice connection to the content, you know, from the, from the modules. Yeah. Yeah. Ahmed 1:17:46 Thank you. Very helpful. I was trying to convince myself whether I should add another thing to my list. Unknown Speaker 1:17:54 Yeah, you gotta be discerning about that. Thanks, everybody. Gotta go. Thank you. One John Skelton 1:17:59 nice thing about the course is the recordings of all the others that we've you might have missed are there in addition to the content focus, as a basis for that, so it's not too late to catch up. Madeleine 1:18:19 And I just really want to thank you all for doing this and for making this available. It's it's incredibly helpful. It's it's really as a service to everybody and I just just really want to thank you so much for doing it. It's it's such an important piece of work. Especially as I said, you know, now people are you know, they're doing their best but they're just they're just strapped back to back so anything that we can learn from each other to help make their lives a bit easier is I think it's really really important so thank you so much for making it so available. Yeah. Elise Keith 1:18:59 Thank you for well shoot everybody. We all do these things. naml and are you finding that people are like Reese responding better now? Because I'm Madeline actually does work in this field, too. And I think Richard, you do work in this field, too. Yes. Yeah. Madeleine 1:19:15 Actually, I'm finding it's it's getting worse. The pressure that people are on under now we've just gone into a second lockdown here. And yeah, it's palpable how people the recognition that something needs to change it's top of mind for everybody. But at the moment my sense is a sense of we can't change we just we just so busy swimming to stay afloat that we can't we know we need to stop but we can't we so busy so it's a bit desperate actually. That's the that's the sense that I've got Nancy White 1:19:57 I wonder about, you know, the The change of the year is always a really interesting psychological time, the holidays, for some, but also just simply the change from December to January, it seems to me it often gives us a little space for more reflection than other times of year, and sort of a permission to say, what's my resolution for the new year? What's going to change? What do I want to carry forward? What do I not want to carry forward? And I think this idea of being able to let go of some things is really important. And sometimes it's hard because sometimes we letting go of them is a loss in some way, but they're no longer valuable. So it to me, there's a lot of emotional substrate here that is not being addressed. But yet, if we're to continue strong through whatever it is, we have to face going forward. We need to deal with that emotional substrate somehow. Madeleine 1:20:52 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then it's, it's things like what you're doing here, that makes people like gives people like me tools to be able to do that. So again, just just can't thank you enough. Ahmed 1:21:08 Yeah, for drop off, but you know, I appreciate you all. Thank you so much, at least, you know, see you You guys are your superheroes. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Madeleine 1:21:21 Bye, bye. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm Elise Keith 1:21:23 Alan. Unknown Speaker 1:21:24 Bye, bye. Nancy White 1:21:26 And I love how we wave now. Richard Dyter 1:21:28 Yeah. raving away. So thanks very much, again, to Elise and then see. And so obviously, as someone who had a look at one of the earlier versions of the course, I was very pleased to participate, see what was going on there. And I just had a question actually on around the purpose. So yeah, one of the things Stefan actually and I were talking about, as well as Louis earlier, was around the purpose. And I think also the purpose today was to explore find out the science, the practice. And then we were talking about in our group well, so you know, when do we go home? What, how do we know that we can go home? And I was saying, Well, actually, it's a bit, it's a bit tricky with a with a purpose. We have example, because I had a good idea early on. So I thought, well, should I just go off now. And, you know, I've found one thing that I could tell everyone else. So in fact, it was impossible for me to, you know, to know, when I when the meeting should finish as it were, apart from the fact that that's the end of it, and you're going to kick me out of the zoo. So I thought that was sort of interesting, actually, I'm certainly grappling with it, I'll be quite honest. I'm just around this idea of purpose. But actually, but then, you know, not purpose, you know what I mean? Elise Keith 1:22:43 Yeah, ya know, that when the when the purpose is making sense of, right. So, so a session like this as a as an, if we were to put it into our taxonomy, I would put this as, as a sense making session, right. And that anything in those learn and influence sense making and training, and it's less, it's more sense making than training? For sure, right? We didn't, because we didn't say, you know, here's five things to do. Let them see you put them into practice. But the the whole thing about meetings in that quadrant is that you walk into them with a purpose that is explore, discuss, find, answer, influence, learn, and the outcome is generally something that that manifests in time farther away from the meeting. Unknown Speaker 1:23:35 Mm hmm. Elise Keith 1:23:36 All right. So the value creation is further out. Yeah, it's very much it's very much a spark. And so in a lot of ways, when you look at meetings in this, this of this nature, and the, you, you have to walk in with intent, and leave with hope that what you've done will have will have shifted, shifted the context, you know, it's very much are you been exploring any of the like the, the complexity things, it's their probes we move to change the container in which we're all operating so that something new can emerge. And it also means from a meeting effectiveness perspective, in terms of the the markers of meeting success, that you have to do things where you you are artificially ending, you're artificially pushing for a result your art artificially, you know, at places just to keep the meeting container intact and create a boundary where there isn't one so that we we have something to hang on to as we as we make make our sense through the shifting sand on our way. would you would you writing, writing writing? But does that? Um, does that jive with both? how you're feeling about it? And then Nancy, how you think about things like this? Richard Dyter 1:25:15 So, yes, that fits with me. And I think it's, it is interesting, the the, almost the the difference, I guess, between a lot of corporate meetings where there is quite a clear thing as in we have got to, to fix with this, and this type of thing where it is a bit more open ended. And then, yeah, I mean, it is because I love that I think I think you said at least in one of your things, you know, how, when can we go home? And I felt that it's such a good thing, you know, I'd love to have every meeting, I feel Yes, everyone can I go home, but I'm just struggling to, you know, there are some types of meetings, maybe like this one, where it's just not clear. And in fact, a lot of my meetings that I have, is not clear when we could go home. Elise Keith 1:25:57 So then, so I just want to just want to pick up on on what I said before, and then help anchor that a little bit. So that's desired outcomes, right? So, you know, when we have x, then we're done. That's, that's the end, we know, we can be done with a meeting that we can go home. So in some meetings, you actually should absolutely absolutely 100% need that right planning meeting, when we have a plan. We so who's doing what next, then we can go home. And that's really it's probably about 100% of what corporate america thinks their scheduling. Mm hmm, it's probably about, they probably should really have more like 60 70% of that be what they're scheduling. And, and the other 30% really should be things that are about sensemaking. So one of the one of you know, the when we meet, we tell each other, tell ourselves the stories about who we are. And that sets our beliefs in our context within which everything else becomes real, right. And without this container without setting, telling those stories, and allowing those to emerge in fluff, Unknown Speaker 1:27:18 then you Elise Keith 1:27:21 then all the plans are, are Elise Keith 1:27:23 crap. Nancy White 1:27:26 So I would amplify on that. And I really love how you're talking about this, at least it's super useful, that when you're so the specifics of strategic planning, when you're planning in a complex context, and you can't predict that what you do will give you the desired outcome. So this is from the Canarian framework, you that probe sense, respond, probe sense respond, there is a very strategic value of the tactic of sensemaking. Yes, there is a very strategic value of the tactic of understanding the underlying emotional context, because we don't know how long we're going to be in this work from home context. And we need to be able to thrive in it not suffer through it. And I think organizations that recognize are operating in complex context, which many of them most of them are still clinging to a mechanical view of their strategy and tactics, including their meetings. So I love this thinking that these these pieces and how they fit together have the kind of abounded meeting that has by the end of this hour, we're going to do this paired with how are we preparing for the future that we can't predict? How are we taking care of ourselves to do that? I you know, I think it's a great intersection. Thank you. Elise Keith 1:28:52 So Richard, I apologize. But the only way to do this is to timebox it and I know we took more of your time by getting excited about Nancy White 1:28:59 and in about three minutes. I have to drop in order to get ready for the next one when I give myself 10 minutes, not just to Richard Dyter 1:29:07 Yes, well done. Well, thanks for thanks again. Nice to see you. Elise Keith 1:29:10 I didn't you too. Hey, Dad, John Skelton 1:29:12 I wanted to thank both of you. We had a an exploratory meeting with our band last night and are still looking for the structure that will work for them. And I got some very good input today. Thank you. And it's lovely to see you, Nancy. Again. I've enjoyed each time I've encountered you in these sessions very much. Madeleine 1:29:34 Thank you. John Skelton 1:29:35 So I will talk more again.